Dante Healy [00:00:00]:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Business Breaks, your project management edge. Today, we're unpacking something project folks don't take clear talk about clearly enough, and that's the different nuances between leadership, management, and coaching in projects. You'll often hear people use these words interchangeably, but they're not the same. And if you don't understand the differences or how they interact, projects tend to suffer. We'll keep it sharp and grounded in the real world, what these roles actually look like in delivery, how they overlap, and where things usually go wrong. So let's get into it. So, we'll start at the top with leadership, and it's not the vague stuff you see on vision boards or TED Talks, but what leadership looks like when you're running projects under pressure.

Dante Healy [00:00:51]:

Because it's one thing to say lead by example. It's another thing to set direction, make tough calls, and quickly try to shape a culture in a team that actually supports delivery. So, John, in your experience, what does leadership really mean in projects?

John Byrne [00:01:09]:

Project. I suppose, you know, we're we're obviously coming at this from the project management's point of view. It can also what we a lot of what we'd say applies to normal business as usual as well. Probably just the mix changes that, you know, there there is a certain mix of leadership, management leadership in projects. In business as usual, there's a mix as well, but it's probably slightly different. But I think a lot of what we say will will apply equally. You know, what makes leadership? What what what's the difference within a project? Leaders will will kind of, you know, it's you need to be, you know, useful, be there. When it matters, be decisive when it counts.

John Byrne [00:01:54]:

It's it's not just managing the plan that the manager does. It's it's leading. You're set in the direction. And maybe, you know, as you said, if if things are happening and the plan is falling apart, then that means that the path might not be obvious what to take next. So the leader is the one set in the direction that the manager has, the manager aspect of you has failed and that your plan is falling apart. So, you know, you need to lead and get a direction back to make a new plan effective, make tough calls. You know, a manager is just managing. The leader is the one who has to actually make the calls.

Dante Healy [00:02:29]:

Same person, obviously, in a project. But, you know, they'd be two of the key aspects, I think, that that make your leadership hat working on the project with your leadership hat on rather than one of the other hats. That's that's where it comes different a little bit. And how about yourself, Dante? What else would you is is your leadership hat on when you're doing these things?

John Byrne [00:02:51]:

Yeah. You have to step back from the fact that most of what project managers do is generally empowered through the project governance and also the fact that you exist in a business because there's a project to be executed. So a lot of project management is mainly management. It's coordination. It's facilitating teams, the workers, as it were, orchestration. But, a lot of the time, leadership sometimes gets confused with formal authority, and we as project managers don't have that formal authority. So leadership for us is mostly behavioral. It's trait based, and, a lot of the time you'll talk about situational leadership when you're out there and the path isn't that clear.

John Byrne [00:03:42]:

You have to kind of navigate through that ambiguity, try and find try and find clarity in the in the fog, separate signal from noise, and also try and ensure that projects and teams keep momentum and keep progressing towards the right direction when it's not necessarily clear because it's not a procedure. It's not predictable how you're supposed to proceed. So I find that, generally, leadership tends to be about accountability as much as anything, and you're also finding that you have to protect your team as much as anything. You're not holding the team necessarily individually accountable for their duties. That's coming back to management. But you're also making sure that the obstacles that prevent them from giving their best work and succeeding are, overcome. So there's this idea of servant leadership in agile and, you know, the scrum master has to remove those blockers or impediments or obstacles that are preventing them from progressing. I think I think for me, that's that's the sort of leadership you see generally in projects.

John Byrne [00:05:05]:

But, I guess, coming further into that, there's also there's leadership that is you know, one of the things I keep coming back to is when good management is mistaken for leadership and bad leadership is mistaken for management. You know, the leader says, let's go. The manager says, you go, and things like that. All of that nonsense, shall we say, because it lacks sub subtlety. I find that the worst type of leadership is, a leader who's all vibes, but no substance behind them. So they'll say all the right things, they'll make grand promises about a better future for everyone, but there's no substance behind it. Have you seen all of that in and how how how does that translate into the team culture, John?

Dante Healy [00:06:01]:

Yeah. I suppose you've you've the guru who, you know, has has read the the motivation book and comes in every day with quotes from it, the the score on the team, which, you know, I suppose has got its place at times. Morale is low or something that they're trying to do. But, yeah, it's it's, you know, if that's all they're doing, that's that's poor leadership, and you'll you'll kind of get, people will will lose, you know, will lose their morale. They'll they'll they'll lose their trust. I mean, ultimately, as project managers, like you said, we don't tend to have authority. We our leadership is is based on on trust. So if if if you've got one who's only doing the the guru type of, motivational speeches, but that's the end of it.

Dante Healy [00:06:53]:

It doesn't really have any substance to it. People will lose trust. They'll stop listening. You know, the culture within the project will just drift away. It won't people won't be all headed in the same direction because they will feel their leaderless because, you know, a bad leader, then people cut pick up on that very quickly, you know.

John Byrne [00:07:13]:

They can be physically present but still absent because they're not providing the leadership that the team is looking for, whether that's guidance or or whether that's specific I I guess, this is where kind of you have to separate leadership from management, but specific direction. It's not necessarily how to do it, it's what do you need to do.

Dante Healy [00:07:36]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:07:37]:

And, a lot of the time, you find that, when we when we talk about vibes, you find that, ultimately, what what creates momentum in a project is results. So when teams are succeeding, their morale will grow. And when they're not succeeding, you find them or if they have to really burn themselves out in order to deliver results, and there's no end of, like, continuously grinding through, then you'll find that, morale will drop pretty quickly.

Dante Healy [00:08:11]:

And that's, I suppose, one of the key, key challenges. That's when, you know, as a project manager, that's when management goes out the window when you're dealing with morale. You can't manage morale. Leadership comes into it. You you can lead a low morale team or person. Mhmm. Out of the entire type of thing. Get your morale up if you if you're a good at it.

Dante Healy [00:08:33]:

And I suppose mentorship can help with that as well, when we get a little bit later on when we we start talking about mentorship, that'll help with morale at times, exact situation. Yeah. And I mean, the the leader, that's that's one of the you know, they they set the direction. They can make tough calls when they have to they create belief when morale dips, but there's a time and a place for their motivational speeches, and that's when they're needed. It's not, like, you know, as we mentioned a couple of minutes ago, if that's all the person has is motivational speeches, they're at the wrong time, the wrong place. And then when they are actually needed, it's. Yeah. Hit been there.

Dante Healy [00:09:09]:

Don't hurt you before. It didn't make any difference then. It's not going to make any difference now. So save them for when it's needed to help, you know, back your team when things get messy, when, you know, the project is starting to to fall apart, which it does with the best. Well, I think we've discussed this before. You know, no matter how good your plan is, something will happen. There will be a crisis in your project. If there was wasn't known to be a crisis in a project, you wouldn't need a project manager.

Dante Healy [00:09:37]:

You just need a piece of software that would create a nice, perfect project plan and everybody would just follow it. But, you know, ultimately you are trying to protect delivery as well. We're able to sacrifice anyone under the bus or that if somebody is is failing, then you you try to help them succeed.

John Byrne [00:09:52]:

And I forgot to mention, actually, when you talk about throwing people under the bus, a leader has to be accountable for the project, whether it's success or failure. And usually, the best leaders tend to share this, the plaudits with the team, but they take all of the blame Yeah. If it goes wrong. They're the ones who are accountable. Usually, you find the odd occasion where someone who's desperate for recognition will claim all of the credit, but not actually, but when the blame's there, they'll they'll hide behind their team members and and look for, should we say, easy targets to throw under the bus and say, we didn't succeed because this person didn't do the job properly. I

Dante Healy [00:10:38]:

see how and that's very short terms and as well because, a, nobody will believe it. You were the project manager, so you should have dealt with it. And, b, even if anybody does believe it, your next project, you know, word will get around, and your next project, will not have the support of your team because they'll all be trying to think, you know, this guy pushes you under the bus if, if if he doesn't get as well. So now, you know, that's I I I will admit one of my things is when it comes to, credit and and staying when when I'm project manager, I like to say, you know, give credit to the team, and then what I take credit for is having that team.

John Byrne [00:11:18]:

Yeah. Exactly. And and that's that's the right way to go about it because, really, it's collective. Everyone's got a contribution to make on a project. If they're not contributing, you have to question what are they doing on the project. And, you know, it could be a different time, you know, because a project will have its phases and certain people are more involved, you know, at different times. Some people need to be more active at the start. Other people tend to ramp up at the end, and the transition.

John Byrne [00:11:52]:

So, yes, good. And, you know, again, coming back to, that idea of leadership, crafting culture, it's as much what you what you're willing to tolerate as much as what you try and set out in terms of that vision. And one of the one of the sort of things that I like in terms of policies is, and, you know, if you don't like swearing, fast forward thirty seconds, the no dickheads rule, you know, that you don't tolerate bad behavior in your team, especially amongst team members. But if you if you tolerate that, then that encourages, or at least it gives a pass for when people have a bad mood and they tend to take it out on other team members. So that's just one example of, you know, what you have to do. You have to really correct those what you don't want to see as much as promoting what you do want to see in your team.

Dante Healy [00:12:56]:

You're kind of trying to create it. And it can be a little difficult in a project, but because your team might not be the same. As you said, some people are active early. Some people come on late. People change. And it's not, like in a business as usual, people only change when they move jobs. In a project team, people change because the project has evolved and it's no longer that particular group or person that's important. That's it.

Dante Healy [00:13:21]:

So it's trying to maintain and I think that's his leadership rather than management and our mentorship. The leadership is trying to maintain a team culture environment, people all working together when there's so much change throughout the, you know, there probably will be a core group that are the team that will be throughout the whole project, but others will be coming in and out as they're needed. So that can make it a little bit more challenging to to have those people coming in because they're not really feeling part of the team. So to make them part of the team, to make them feel as committed as the people who are who are always there. And that can be a challenge for leadership, but that is a leadership role, in project management.

John Byrne [00:14:04]:

Yeah. Yeah. And inclusion is so important because people need to feel, as you say, welcomed. They need to feel that they are valued and appreciated, and that their work has meaning.

Dante Healy [00:14:16]:

Exactly. And that they get a bit of credit at the end as well. You know, it might they might have only been involved for about, you know, on a twelve month project. They might have only been involved for, like, the the two weeks at the early on and testing that they particularly had to do, and then they're gone for the rest of it. But remember them and give them credit at the end of the project, then it's a success that, well, if they hadn't done their two weeks work at the beginning, the the foundations probably wouldn't have been there for the successful project at the end.

John Byrne [00:14:43]:

And it's so important to make sure people do get the recognition for things. It it reinforces the right behaviors as much as, you know, controlling or should I say, enforcing discipline on bad behavior is equally important. But, yeah, sometimes the trade off, and I've seen this occasionally, You have a high performer, but they're toxic. And then you wonder you're almost trying to do a calculation rather than have it as a nonnegotiable. You you think how painful is it to lose this person versus how painful is it to keep them, but then eventually have to replace everyone else on your team, you know?

Dante Healy [00:15:25]:

And I I will admit now. I I I'll class it as a project. I I you know, back in my my days playing tennis, and we'd have league teams. So each league would be a kind of a mini project. And when I'd be captain, my preference was always I would pick the players who are willing to commit and show up every week to play. Even if there was a better player or who was too flaky that you couldn't rely on, then I just wouldn't have them on the team. You know? And the the worst few that you'd have that were the really, really top, you know, really strong players with unexpected that because they were so good that everybody else would just have to put up with them and put up with them canceling at the last minute and that. But whenever I'd be named captain of the team, they weren't on the team.

Dante Healy [00:16:09]:

They were just not the stop list. I would stick. Even if technically on paper, it meant it was a slightly weaker team. I'd be kind of thinking, well, actually, it's it's a more reliable team. I mean, you can get a bit of team spirit going here because everybody knows everybody is is fighting for each other. Whereas when it was, when you had this, you know, other guy on it, that would be and it wasn't the same guy all the time. In case anybody's thinking on top of someone in particular, I'm not but there were if anybody plays tennis, you know, they're that guy, you know, nearly

John Byrne [00:16:37]:

John's Tennis Club will be in the show notes, by the way. And if you sign up on our email list, I'll give you the name of the person John's talking about.

Dante Healy [00:16:46]:

I've had enough conversations with other people from other clubs. You know, every club has more than one.

John Byrne [00:16:52]:

Exactly. Exactly. This is I'm just missing otherwise. So but feel free to sign on our email list. I will put the link in the show notes. Sorry, John. Back to back to this, yeah. And I guess we we need to really enforce that that culture.

John Byrne [00:17:12]:

It's as much the long term as well as the immediate, leadership behaviors that drive performance.

Dante Healy [00:17:18]:

I am a believer though that that the team, team is stronger than any individual no matter how good the individual is. So if if you've got a toxic individual, then, you know, you're better off sacrificing that toxic individual than risking losing the whole team dynamic. Even even if everybody stays, they can't go anywhere. It's not like they're going to quit their jobs and go, but they just won't be motivated. They won't be. And that's that's all leadership. You know, that's up to the leader to to realize this is happening and to stop it before, you know, we destroy the whole team. And if it destroys the team, the project is the project relies on the team to deliver.

John Byrne [00:17:54]:

Yeah. And I've got a few stories there. Usually, what you find, but I'm not gonna go into it. But what you find is, when I mentioned about strong technical people, it's usually developers. Sometimes they can be toxic, but sometimes it's just about their communication style that they tend to be very direct. And a lot of the time, what they what it is is more, should we say, a personality trait, or communication style that tends to go. But then again, if you when I was doing development, if you go on if you try and go on Stack Overflow and ask a question, you can be ripped to shreds. These people don't, should we say, they don't sugarcoat their diagnosis.

John Byrne [00:18:37]:

And sometimes, they're really just pointing out faults rather than telling you to correct it because maybe that's how they learned was to figure out themselves and the the clue is in the criticism, if you know what I mean. They point out exactly what you're doing wrong. And, you know, for people who aren't used to that, shall we say, tone, it can be stressful.

Dante Healy [00:19:04]:

And a good leader will be able to help able to to reel in the expert that, okay, don't be quite so blunt and and the person on the receiving end say, look, this is it's not a personal thing. This is just how they communicate.

John Byrne [00:19:17]:

Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:19:18]:

Maybe the leader ends up you know, you figure out a way or maybe you end up having to be the middleman. Yeah. So that you can take the blunt and then you figure out how to how to deliver the message in a nicer way.

John Byrne [00:19:27]:

Exactly. But if over the long term it doesn't work out, then you have to either you have to make a call. Who who do you replace? And and it's gonna be usually a a case of technical strength versus, team dynamics. There may be that trade off, because it's down to individuals. And, you know, each each one should be judged on its individual merits in the context of the requirements of the project. And that segues nicely into now that we kind of have a direction set, this is where really management comes in, and you've got to make things tangible. So timelines, budgets, team dynamics, scope creep. And it's less about inspiring your team members and motivating them, and it's more about the systems that keep the wheels going when things start to slip.

John Byrne [00:20:25]:

And here's where we shift from, shall we say, culture to tactics and moves, and where good managers can quietly hold everything together. So with that management element in mind, how do you keep a project on track while protecting your team and managing stakeholder pressure?

Dante Healy [00:20:49]:

Well, as you kind of alluded there, the managing piece would be, you know, setting clear limits on the scope, the time, and the cost. You know, as the project manager, you you may not be able to stop scope creep, but you do need to manage it. You need to have clear processes that, yes, the sponsor now wants us to do something extra, but we are putting through this through the change management. You know? We're we're we're gonna have a system for that that they they it's not a case of the sponsor just says it and we have to try and do it. It's not the sponsor has to document it. It has to be approved by the steering committee or the project board or whoever it is, and then we can do it because then we can justify and we can give an estimate of what it's going to extra time. Also, accountability, without micromanaging, that does build trust, which, as we kinda said, is what leadership needs to do. But management and and, you know, it's the same person.

Dante Healy [00:21:42]:

It's just different hats that they're wearing. So Yeah. A lot of what you're doing in the management piece is actually building up your reputation to help with the leader.

John Byrne [00:21:50]:

It's setting expectations, and it's effectively through good governance because that's what managers do, is they govern and control the project. It's it's giving you almost permission and freedom to kind of go away and not have to be micromanaged because they trust you, because you're being ideally, if you're communicating progress well and clearly in an understandable way that kind of gives, the, sponsors warm and fuzzies, shall we say, that they are comfortable that it's being well run, then they'll generally back off and just be satisfied with the regular updates.

Dante Healy [00:22:31]:

And as far as the team is concerned, you know, doing doing things, like setting the the communications, like setting clear priorities. Yeah. I see that that can be something that managers, even experienced managers sometimes can be a bit weak on that. Yeah. They're almost they're they're everything is origin. Everything is a priority. And, you know, this the old thing.

John Byrne [00:22:52]:

You'll burn out the team almost immediately if you if you if you have no change control, discipline.

Dante Healy [00:22:59]:

And that's it.

John Byrne [00:23:00]:

Yeah. It's got

Dante Healy [00:23:00]:

Like, it's it's it's the old, thing, you know, if everything's a priority, then nothing's a priority.

John Byrne [00:23:05]:

Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:23:05]:

You do need to have that clear and communicate communicate it now to the team so that the team know where they should be focusing their energy at any given time. They can't do everything. So what we

John Byrne [00:23:15]:

They can't pivot all the time and

Dante Healy [00:23:17]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:23:18]:

And change direction midway through their work. Otherwise, they'll just burn out, they'll go nowhere, and they'll be fed up before long.

Dante Healy [00:23:25]:

And and also communicate it clearly to people you're reporting to, to the project sponsor, to the project board, or the, you know, steering committee or whoever it is. So that they're not constantly asking you, well, where are we on something that's you've already communicated? No. This is this is, like, low priority. That will be done at the end where at the moment, we're focused on this. This is, you know, where we we whatever. I'm a this is our priority now. Don't be asking me about item x. That's not we focus on that at the end.

Dante Healy [00:23:57]:

And we get to yes. It is important, but we can't do that until we have aid on. So that's where our priority is. And, you know, I think as well, it can be important with management piece to make sure, you know, a project manager is kind of almost a little bit equivalent of a middle manager in company.

John Byrne [00:24:16]:

Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:24:16]:

You make sure that the senior people in that business are not directly

John Byrne [00:24:24]:

You almost have to shield them from the executive. Your team if your if your executive leadership are going to your team, but they're bypassing you for things, that's when it all kind of undermines your authority and undermines your control. Because scope keep scope creep can sneak in because your resources are being consumed on certain pet tasks, etcetera. And and that you need to be very strong and firm, not aggressive, I might say, but you need to call it out and say, look, how am I supposed if you're undermining my authority, how am I supposed to manage the project properly?

Dante Healy [00:25:05]:

And and to be honest, though, it's not even and this this applies to BAU as well as, as projects. It's not even so much about undermining your talk. That is a big thing. They are undermining you. But the amount of stress and pressure that causes the more junior members of the team that Yeah. You know, they're they're being given count you know, contradictory instructions from and what what do they do? How do they deal with that? It's really not

John Byrne [00:25:31]:

But if if they come to you and say, look, I did this thing for this other manager who's not my and, who's not my manager because I felt pressured into doing it. Hence, I didn't deliver on what you asked me to do in time. You need to be, you need to be calm with them, but firm with the other person who's done it.

Dante Healy [00:25:54]:

The unfortunate thing is, though, that a lot of the especially more junior people won't come to you and say that. They will just get stressed out the hell trying to trying to to do both things. And both things might be opposite. They they

John Byrne [00:26:07]:

I've seen I've seen I know why that happens, my friend. In big organizations that have complex structures, HR usually fails. You you have committees that decide promotions. So, the poor junior is realizing that he not only do they have to keep me happy to sponsor them as the middle manager, I have to keep my peers happy because if I say, heaven forbid, I should recommend them for a promotion, and then that peer just happens to have a because they may have pushed back on them when they weren't their direct manager, that that peer might decide to throw a spanner in the works and say, this person was not not very team when we needed help. And and therefore, in the back of your mind, you know if if they know that's the game, is trying to keep everyone happy, then you're in trouble.

Dante Healy [00:26:58]:

Yeah. And the juniors will will then, you know, they'll get stressed out and leave or or or simply will stop performing. So that's as a manager, that is your role responsibility as a manager to to make sure that doesn't happen, to make it clear that when your team members are getting put under pressure that they feel they can come to you and let you know that they're getting a bit stressed out, and that they're not the ones who have to push back. You're the one who push back.

John Byrne [00:27:23]:

Yeah. Agreed. And, again, it's recognizing poor performance as much as anything. When you're managing, you have to know you have to see, well, what did we agree you were going to deliver by when? And if you're not delivering, why are you not delivering? And ideally, you wanna do it before it's due. And even then, you don't want people who can't plan their work, who are leaving all their deadlines to last minute and thinking, oh, a day before I've got to deliver that by tomorrow. And then only then do they do it. I mean, sometimes things come out of things come out of the plan that are just priorities immediately, and you have no notice, and you just reprioritize. But it's also about that communication so that you're aware why.

Dante Healy [00:28:17]:

And I suppose the other thing is, that's specific to project management that, you know, that that bit that we were discussing, that can happen even in business as usual where, you know, or in project management, the other little pieces as well, a lot of your team actually have a day job and have a day manager Mhmm. Have a manager of their day job. So they are are actually being torn two different ways, and you have to manage that. Mhmm. Yeah. All the leadership in the world isn't you know, you can't compete you can't try to out leadership compete another leader.

John Byrne [00:28:48]:

Especially if you don't write their performance review.

Dante Healy [00:28:51]:

Exactly. So so you have to manage that. And and a lot of that is going to be you have to talk to their manager, not to them. They don't they have to do ultimately, they do what their business as usual manager is telling them to do. Because that's who those are. They've only been seconded to your project on a part time basis for a certain amount of time to do a certain task. So if you need if if they're not actually being given enough time to do that on your project, you don't deal with them. It's not their fault.

Dante Healy [00:29:22]:

You have to go to their manager and you have to say to the manager, look, every. Yeah. Either either they're not sticking to the agreement or maybe they are sticking to the agreement. But now you're suddenly realized, you know, this was a much bigger task than I thought it was when I was doing the plan. I need them for longer. I need Yeah.

John Byrne [00:29:40]:

Yeah. Exactly. They could be split fifty fifty between your project and another project or BAU. And you you say, well, I need them for sick I need 60% of their time. I need a little bit more extra to get us over the line within the time frame we've set out in our plan.

Dante Healy [00:29:55]:

Yeah. And to be a good manager and a good leader as well, but, you know, this would be mainly the management piece. You should not be putting that person under pressure to, you know, basically, to be working longer hours.

John Byrne [00:30:09]:

You don't add work without any sort of consideration for their personal time because they've, you know, people are contractually obligated, and there's a lot of workers who I mean, I was there. I was grinding fourteen hour days and coming in on weekends just to get stuff done because I had I was locked in meetings, but I still had work to do. And on top of that, if you have a team that aren't very strong and you have no mechanism for getting rid of them other than a performance review, which if you know HR, they give you a a whole heap of documentation to kind of track their performance so that legally they're covered if they have to let them go. And then that just means more work, so you just think it's easier to take on the work unless you can rotate them out to a job that's more suitable.

Dante Healy [00:31:01]:

I'm thinking more from the person who's doing the work themselves that, you know, that they they I'm I'm kind of figuring more. They are suitable. They are good, but their time is just being pulled because they've got too many different managers. They're you're they're not part of your project yet.

John Byrne [00:31:15]:

Yeah. That's one scenario. Sorry. I'm I'm jumping, you know. Ultimately, you need to say if something's not working because the timings aren't being met, then you need to understand what it is and fix it.

Dante Healy [00:31:27]:

Yeah. But that but, you know, as manager, you should not be you should not be going to the person whose whose time is getting pulled away. You should be going to their manager, to their day manager, the person who's actually okay. And that's your responsibility to go to their manager and negotiate. Either you need more time from them or you need, you know, or or maybe that the manager their day manager has not given the agreed time, then the thing oh, and you say, look. This is what was agreed when we did the project. You need to to adhere to it and give us that pair some for the agreed plan. Or you've realized, no.

Dante Healy [00:32:03]:

Actually, I I my plan was wrong. I need as you said, I I don't need 50% of their time. I need 60% of their time. But you go to their manager and negotiate that. You don't go to the person themselves and expect them

John Byrne [00:32:14]:

to Give an extra 10%. You know?

Dante Healy [00:32:17]:

Yeah. That's not fair on them, and that's been that's been a bad manager. And that will then also impact on your leadership because they'll lose trust in you and they You

John Byrne [00:32:25]:

don't care about them. That's what you're communicating. You want you're just moving them around like a chess piece because it's more convenient to say, well, I asked you to do it and you agreed.

Dante Healy [00:32:35]:

That's it. And I can I've seen that in the past, though, where project managers, they're afraid to talk to the more senior people, to the other manager. Yeah. And they try to put the the junior person under pressure to to figure out. And that's not fair.

John Byrne [00:32:49]:

They avoid their chickening out because they avoid the confrontation when you have to escalate a problem. Yeah. And sometimes, you have to if you can't do it yourself, you must have a manager who can do it for you. I think. Yeah. If if that's if if you're not really comfortable with confrontational discussions. And after a while, to be honest, you have to go through it a few times to get comfortable with. Sometimes it can you can diffuse it and just, like, argue on the facts, debate the facts.

John Byrne [00:33:22]:

Right? Sometimes it can get emotional, and it can be, like, competitive. And in those cases, you still have to maintain your professional demeanor. But it's all good to experience, and the times you go through it, you learn something. And I would refer to our episode on negotiation, which we'll drop in the comments as well.

Dante Healy [00:33:47]:

Yeah. And and to be honest, in those situations, yeah, as you said, sometimes sometimes it's not that the, other manager the the other manager may not have the it's not that they're being mean about it. It's that if they let the person go to the project, they can't get their business as usual stuff done.

John Byrne [00:34:05]:

Yeah. Yeah. They're managing their own turf, aren't they?

Dante Healy [00:34:08]:

Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, so sometimes you may have to then end up there's no agreement between is not because anybody is being overly, you know, obstructive or anything like that, but because there's just both business as usual and your project or the other project in your project need more than the resources are available. So then you will have to escalate it up to the project sponsor, project board, say, look, resources aren't here. So either we need to bring in somebody else to do the work or we need to facilitate the backfill of that position into the business as usual work so that we can get them on a full time basis. And if you are having to backfill, well, then that's out of the project budget, not out of the business as usual budget because it's for your project.

John Byrne [00:34:52]:

Yeah. Yeah. You have to fund it. Right?

Dante Healy [00:34:54]:

Fund it. Exactly. So then you have to take responsibility for it. But, you know, sometimes that's what the negotiation is, and and you just have to accept that, okay. Look. I'll take ownership. When I did the plan, I thought we'd we'd be able to, you know, we Language. Spend at a time.

John Byrne [00:35:09]:

Yeah. The assumptions didn't work out.

Dante Healy [00:35:11]:

Or it could be the other way around. Look, when we did the plan at that stage, the business as usual manager figured he could afford to lose them for this amount of time. But now they've suddenly got an awful lot more.

John Byrne [00:35:19]:

Yeah. Yeah. Now they've got a shortfall and they're saying, oh, actually we've reprioritized and this person isn't available. They're now from 50% to 20%. Can you manage with that?

Dante Healy [00:35:30]:

Exactly. So, you know, you just have to take into account as well as a manager. I was thinking slightly off key, which is that, you know, it's not always deliberate and it's not always sometimes everybody is the good guy. It it doesn't Yeah. See a bad guy. Sometimes everybody is the good guy, and it's just not walking out the way anybody thought it was. So you need to accept that. Don't take it personally and just try to solution.

John Byrne [00:35:54]:

That's the that's the problem when you start thinking in narratives and you start developing a hero complex. You're the main protagonist. That's not the case. At the end of the day, everyone has a role, and everyone is the main character in their own story. So you need to suspend your ego sometimes and just really not make it about you because it isn't really.

Dante Healy [00:36:15]:

You are you are not a big character in anybody else's story, so they are not able to get you.

John Byrne [00:36:22]:

Brilliant. Brilliant. And, I guess, if we transition now from management to coaching, And even if you got a solid leader, a shop manager all rolled into one, there's still a missing piece, which is the coaching. And coaching isn't about being soft or encouraging vibes, and it's not pseudo therapy. It's actually about p the people on your team. It's about their growth, ensuring that they have the right behaviors, they the right attitude, taking ownership, working through blockers independently without being told to do so. But when it's done badly, it becomes just another way of enforcing bias or pretending to support people whilst you're doing nothing. It's like, say if you had a technical problem and you think you can coach the person to say, what do you do? You know, rather than give them a straight answer, which is what they're looking for.

John Byrne [00:37:22]:

So I was thinking, if we go into what real coaching looks like and what it isn't, how do you coach your team without overstepping or slowing things down?

Dante Healy [00:37:33]:

You see, well, you know, I suppose, again, it's a very because it's the one person just wearing different hats. And to be honest, I I'm saying wearing different hats, but, it it's a very gray area that the the three different hats look very similar from certain angles, if you know what I mean. So, like, one of one of the, you know, the key things is as as when you're coaching people, you're you're you're building trust with regular one to ones, check ins, things like that. But then that feeds back into the trust in the management, the trust in the leadership. It's all and it'd be very difficult to see how you're building trust while you're building trust as a manager, as a leader, or as a a coach. In reality, you're usually building trust probably as a coach and a manager. And that trust then is what allows you to lead. But then that reinforces the trust if you're doing it well.

Dante Healy [00:38:27]:

So, you know, the the the you're doing that quietly. You're you're you know, coaching is trying to make, helps with the project. But what ultimately it is is that the project team that have been reporting to you are better at the end of the project than they were at the beginning. They've learned something new. They've got a new experience. They're a little bit more confident. They're a little bit you know, you you've improved them in some way. You improved their career prospects.

Dante Healy [00:38:52]:

You've improved it's it's not built to

John Byrne [00:38:54]:

improve their ability to do the job.

Dante Healy [00:38:56]:

Exactly. And various different ways to do that, but that's the key thing, I think, is, that's your coaching role that when, you know, your man your leadership role is

John Byrne [00:39:04]:

You're growing your members. Yeah. And making them stronger. Sometimes, some managers are great coaches. They they bring on people who don't necessarily have the skills at the beginning, but they become stronger and eventually rotate out, and then they're back filled by someone else. The coaching cycle starts again.

Dante Healy [00:39:22]:

And the beauty of it in project management is that when they get so good that they they they're leaving, but your project is finished, so you're not losing the great person that you you you've, helped create. In in business as usual, when you've coached somebody really well, they'll eventually move on because, you know, they're after your job now and you're not going anywhere. So they have to but it's still it's worth doing because I think, you know, it's it's better to have somebody who's too good for their job and will eventually leave than it is to have somebody who's not good enough for their job. But in in the project management, you don't have that to worry about because usually a project will end and they'll move on to a a more, you know, a senior role afterwards. But that's your you know, your leadership is kind of guiding the

John Byrne [00:40:01]:

The mission.

Dante Healy [00:40:02]:

Yeah. The the whichever. Yeah. The mission. And your management team your your management hat is planning it and managing it and making sure everything works. And your coaching thing is that, well, everybody on your team or at least the large chunk of your team should have progressed thanks to your management.

John Byrne [00:40:21]:

So I'll paraphrase it in my words just to give a different flavor. So leadership is about setting the vision, setting the culture within the team, making sure that people understand the, the ways of working, the behaviours that are expected, the values you're supposed to you're supposed to, embody. And then management is about really the results, focusing on the output, the tactics, how the systems and the processes that you have in place to ensure that you're always you've you've you've got a flaw where you don't drop below in terms of that performance. And then, coaching is on the, individual, and it can be at the team level. It's about developing the individuals within your team to be better and increase their capacity to take on more. Yeah. And they're all means to an end, which is a successful project.

Dante Healy [00:41:19]:

Exactly. But they're all very important. But, you know, wherever you won't get a successful project or you might, but you're lucky. You're not good. Yeah. And I don't know what to say. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. But generally speaking, we're a project.

Dante Healy [00:41:32]:

You can't rely on luck. You have to actually

John Byrne [00:41:34]:

Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:41:35]:

Pull them.

John Byrne [00:41:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, John. Go ahead. I was gonna say the the other thing is not every project manager should be coaching teams if they don't have coaching skills. It's something that you can learn to apply, but don't go gung ho and think think you're coaching someone because you're telling them what to do. It's more than that.

Dante Healy [00:41:58]:

It's yeah. It it I mean, a lot of coaching as well is, is is knowing when somebody needs to be told what to do, and when somebody can actually figure out for themselves, if they're just given maybe a little hint or a bit of guidance or something, you know, just a little bit of direction and let them figure it out for themselves. Sometimes you can't do it either. You haven't got time. There's a deadline coming up, so you just hope how to do it. But, you know, if you if you have time and that's what a good coach does. You can figure out the difference. When when can I let the person figure it out for themselves or a little help? When do I need to step in and show them? And I

John Byrne [00:42:36]:

remember a customer services manager actually in a branch. One of the I caught one of their team members doing something wrong, and, which led to some business issues. And the way he phrased it, I think it was tongue in cheek, but he said, don't worry, we'll coach you out of them. And, that's that's one of the miss misunderstandings of coaching is you it's not control in disguise. You have to be thinking about the development of the person.

Dante Healy [00:43:06]:

And it's, you know, it's it's also it's, it's using it's using certain things that, you know, a a a pure manager whom somebody with total just management time, mindset, you know, if if if you've missed the deadline, if you've miscommunicated something like that, they would just be kind of almost reprimanding you. Whereas coaching mindset person would be using that, use it to to reflect, using it as a learning experience Mhmm. To rather, so we're not reprimanding you. We're just pointing out right this is where you went wrong a bit. How do you think you'd approach that again better and the next time it comes up? Because it will come up again. And and that's the coaching mindset. And what you'll find is now there are times and places. That's the the key thing.

Dante Healy [00:43:49]:

We've we've discussed the leadership. We've discussed the management. We've discussed the coaching. As I said, they all are equally applicable in business as usual as they are project management, but there's time and a place. And that's the skill, and that's the that's that's the management.

John Byrne [00:44:05]:

Context. Yeah. Because sometimes you don't have the space to coach, because coaching is about really facilitating the individual. You listen to them. You let them speak. You ask them questions to guide their thought process. It's more about their self growth, their realizations, rather than telling them this is what it is and not necessarily explaining, but getting discipline in. That's management.

John Byrne [00:44:31]:

Coaching is about the facilitation.

Dante Healy [00:44:34]:

And it's getting the balance right is basically but but that's there's nothing we can do. We can never discuss or tell people this is how to get the balance right because the balance will be different than every and it'd be different with different people. You know, different team members, you may have to to to get different balance there, different on different projects. The exact same people, but a different project, a different thing. And it'll be different on different days that, you know, today, you needed to coach the person, but tomorrow, you need to manage the

John Byrne [00:45:01]:

That leadership when you get into that. I think coaching is a leadership skill, if I'm honest, but it's not therapy. Although, you can step into therapy sometimes. It depends on the circumstances. And there's kind of again, if you're not a trained counselor, I wouldn't recommend it. But sometimes, you have to people have lives outside of their jobs. And sometimes yeah. If it affects their jobs, you have to step in sometimes.

Dante Healy [00:45:30]:

I think that's probably leadership more so than coaching even. That that's a leadership skill. So, like, coaching, it's not therapy, but it's also not teaching. You know, people confuse coaching and teaching. It's not coaching in a in our sense. It's not you're not teaching the person something that they've never done before. You're just you're you're just helping them to, you know, you're guiding them. There is a certain amount you've taught them something maybe they they they never knew before.

Dante Healy [00:45:54]:

But, you know, it's it's not so much about sitting down and, hey. We're going to to to go from from a to b, and I'm gonna teach you how to do it. It's kind of more a case of how would you get from a to b? What do you think would be the right thing? And and that's coaching. That's the difference between teaching and coaching.

John Byrne [00:46:11]:

I mean, it's it's like the same thing can be different in a different context as well. You touch upon training. And if you're giving if you're allowing your teams to have training, it could be specific training because they have a capability gap, and that's management. It could be training for their next role beyond the current role, and that's leadership or coaching.

Dante Healy [00:46:34]:

That's it. And and even the the coaching could be they've had the training, but they just never actually put into practice. Okay. So now we're going to do a little bit of coaching and let's just let's see how you think it should be put into practice.

John Byrne [00:46:45]:

Exactly.

Dante Healy [00:46:46]:

And and and help them if if you if they need, but but try to let them do it. And you just give them the the the the support they need, not not just dictate.

John Byrne [00:46:56]:

And it should be a two way conversation because if you invest money in people's training, but they don't they don't see the value of it or they know they'll never use it, then could be waste. Maybe they're using it to get step away from their day job, which in and of itself isn't bad, but it's not necessarily productive. What would they rather be doing and let them do that instead?

Dante Healy [00:47:19]:

Exactly. And and but, you know, if you've given somebody the training, even if they've gotten the training so that they can step away and go to a different job, that's fine. But, you know, you take advantage of that training while they're still with you. So let them implement it. Let them use what they've learned and put put them up on it. Yeah. That that can be that's you know, again, it's a mix of it's the management. It's knowing who who has what skill set, who has what training, and making sure that you take advantage of that.

Dante Healy [00:47:44]:

It's the leadership. It's the, you know, giving them the the

John Byrne [00:47:49]:

Direction.

Dante Healy [00:47:49]:

Direction to to do it. And then it's the coaching. It's okay. They have the training, but they've never actually implemented it before. So now we're going to just give them that little bit of coaching, help them to turn it into reality from something interior academic training that they've got into the real world application of it. Yeah. And you're you're doing you know, that's why I did this can be very confusing for a lot of people, I think, just because it's not only the same person doing it, but you're you're almost doing the exact same thing in certain situation. In one situation, what you're doing is would be considered managing.

Dante Healy [00:48:24]:

In the next situation, what you're doing will be considered coaching. And in your situation, you're doing almost the exact same thing, and it's leadership. Context is everything.

John Byrne [00:48:32]:

Yeah. Context and nuance, really. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, thank you, John. That's that's great. So I guess, we've chewed chewed the, chewed the fat as it were on this this topic and, the differences between the three parts, leadership, management, and coaching. And and just to wrap up, you know, leadership gives direction.

John Byrne [00:49:00]:

Management keeps things steady, coaching brings out the best in people, and you get all free right so that your project doesn't just deliver, but it works seamlessly. But even if one of them's off, the cracks will show up fast in your project. If the team loses trust, as you said, progress will stall, and good people will leave your team. And so, really, it's it's so important to know the difference and know when to shift gears between those three behaviors. It's not optional. It's it's giving you an edge as a project manager. So, John, before we finish up, any other final thoughts?

Dante Healy [00:49:43]:

I think you you wrapped her up very well. I I would say, yeah, your your leadership, the the main outputs from that are going to be the the vision and alignment for the the team. Management, your main outputs, the execution and the delivery of the project. And then your coaching, your main outputs are the growth and resilience of your team members.

John Byrne [00:50:01]:

So with that in mind, everyone, thank you for listening, and we will catch you up next time. John, thank you very much as always.