Dante Healy [00:00:06]:

You're fed up with the 9 to 5 You've been working hard for years, and you're just not seeing the results you want. You want to break free from the traditional career, but don't know how. Business breaks is here to help. Oh, hello, and welcome to business breaks. Today, John and I will be discussing negotiation in a business context and in exploring why it's such an important skill. Negotiation can be a tricky process but with the right tools and techniques, it can also be incredibly rewarding and lead to successful outcomes for all the parties involved. So I personally think negotiation skills are more important than ever because business conditions are more volatile on certain complex and ambiguous. Negotiations and renegotiations occur more frequently, and being able to negotiate effectively is growing in importance when achieving success in today's business world. Whether you're a business leader negotiating contracts or a new employee negotiating employment terms, negotiation skills are critical to achieving success. Additionally, negotiation is not just about getting the best transactional deal for yourself and your company, but it's also about being able to negotiate strategic outcomes. It can be for a number of reasons, not necessarily just to get the best deal, although that's usually a part of it. It can also be to build long term relationships, establish your brand reputation, through creating win win deals and also being able to negotiate short term deals for longer term larger deals in the future. So negotiation is a key life skill which isn't just limited to business. It's also applicable in all areas of life, whether it's a raise, a car, or even deciding where to go for dinner. And to level set expectations, I remember a time talking with a senior operations leader about how bad it can get if you have no negotiation skills. He was recently partnered up with a fresh graduate from purchasing who basically was there to support getting a new contract with supply. The young man was taking the lead with a remit, and he kicked started the discussion simply by saying, give me a 10% price discount. Why was that? Because that was his target. Supply said, no. Why should we? We're not gonna drop our price. but you must give me 10%. No? And then he re if he simply just kept restating it louder, I need that 10%. And then the operations manager had to step in and start negotiating, saying, look, we understand commodity prices have risen However, you have been getting efficiencies, meaning that it's taking less labor to complete the job. And also, we haven't been getting the same level of quality. So we need to revise the same base assumptions. Let's discuss. He negotiated a 12% reduction which the graduate was credited for. So now before we dive further into the topic, we want to qualify ourselves before continuing Neither of us are ex FBI negotiators, so don't worry, though. We'll do our best to give this topic justice. And with that said, let's get negotiating John, why do you consider negotiation to be a key school in business? I look forward to hearing your nonnegotiables on this topic.

John Byrne [00:04:00]:

Well, as you said, everything is nearly in negotiation at this stage even from working with our colleagues to the sides you know, okay. Where will we go for lunch this Friday to association with other businesses whether in a partner or a subordinate or a with you being the junior partner or them being the junior partner or being pure equals. Everybody kind of is negotiating. for everything. He even negotiate the negotiations. You know, will will we meet in person? Will it be over Zoom? Will it be over Teams? And given that, you know, so many pieces of of the puzzle in business all We all go around negotiations. It is everybody it's always been very important for everybody, whether they realize it or not. think a lot of the thing is a lot of people just didn't necessarily categorize what they were doing as a negotiation. But it it is, as I always say, is even if you're giving instruction It's really a form of negotiation. Very one side of negotiation, but negotiation nonetheless. So yeah. And and like you said in the introduction, negotiations and renegotiations that even negotiations that have been closed, they get renegotiated for various reasons. So, you know, it's it's very rare that there'll be a a true one off. And as a result of that, then you you need to keep in one eye on the relationship well, you know, the relationship is the most important thing, not just the outcome of the transaction that you're negotiating because you don't know what the future holds. You may having to renegotiate this particular transaction or you, you know, maybe looking for negotiations for a a new transaction in the future, but with the same negotiating partners whether they represent in the same companies or different companies or or wherever. So that that's a key one, I think, is the relationship. Make sure above all else that the relationship is stronger at the end of the negotiations than it was at the beginning. And, you know, rather than just focusing on the transaction that you're trying to lose here.

Dante Healy [00:06:07]:

I completely agree. And it's interesting that when you do focus on the relationship, you're able to be You're able to see more options because if you keep going transactional, you're basically thinking win lose. And by default, you have to win. And if you're always winning, then you find over time people will be less inclined to want to do deals with you. So even though you may think at the beginning, you've got options, you can always switch suppliers Over time, you'll find that those suppliers may not be so agreeable. They may actually penalize you either by sanctions or not doing business at all or actually making the prices so punitive because they know that they're gonna get gloittely in the future.

John Byrne [00:06:59]:

Yeah. That's and that that's that's the key challenge, I think. You know, there there's There's many books that will deal with transactional tactics deals in negotiations, but I think, you know, strategic overview of the relationship, you know, the relationship is the strategy effectively in all of that. That's important because even if you don't do business with particular, the OCA partner, again, in the future, reputationally. You know, if they walked away from that feeling, they had a good relationship where you That will spread whether it's they themselves come up with with you in the future and for a different negotiation or just, you know, they go on negotiating with somebody else and Have a good relationship there with them and recommend you, you know, that oh, you had a, you know, a good experience with this. Even if they did, transactionally, you got what you wanted Now sometimes maybe there will be a kind of almost a I don't think there's ever really a true 0 sum game in negotiations. You know? It should be possible for both sides to come out with with something. But there can be a a kind of a sense of a win loss transactionally. So it tells you you all by avoid that situation. I think it's well working the relationship because the review strengthen the relationship even if they didn't get as much as they the other side, they can get as much as they want the transactionally. If they're walking away, thinking they've they've straight into their relationship, they'll still kind of think about it as a street dress. And the same for you that if you, you know, you might not get everything you want wherever you've in a strong relationship hour of the negotiations. It's a success. It's a success for the future.

Dante Healy [00:08:33]:

Yeah. And you have to make sure that your strategy is aligned, and you have the right partner that you're negotiating with. Ideally, you want someone who's not looking to And I think we covered this before, someone who's look who could potentially be your competitor. In the future, maybe someone further down the supply chain further up the supply chain who's just looking for an edge that they can use to grow their own business. So if you've got the distribution And maybe you're the middle man between the supply and the market. Maybe the supplier would look to edge you out eventually or some other Some other form of competing may be setting up their own capability, but working closely with you to learn what you do and Effectively copy it, reproduce it in order to create their own version of it, and then edge you out, but then also have access to your customers and understand how you work, how you acquire them. So there's there's kind of that in in there. At at the same time, you know, these on the flip side, you may have competitors who you might collaborate with and they could eventually become your customers whether it's through outsourcing work that they they don't want to do or they're not suited to do. It's it's very tricky, really. At some point, you do want to be seen to be make getting advantages. You don't wanna be giving concessions all the time, and then thinking people are you favors but they don't feel like they've owed you anything because they've already had the transaction. So there is that balance to be had, and there's an element protecting yourself now whilst growing your reputation for the longer term. Now I guess in terms of as a supplier, You need to be thinking about long term customer lifetime value, but at the same time, it's also making sure you have the right customers So you're very specific on which customers you're focusing on those negotiations with. And you don't want to deviate too far from what your core competencies are. If your business model only offers a certain bundle of products, You don't want to be deviating and trying to do things that you're not set up to do, or you're not naturally capable of delivering with ease. And this is again where you may you may want to bring in a partner to actually deliver the pieces that you can't do, but you might not want to be too closely connected. It may be a hands off. Here's a referral. These people are people we refer to to actually work with for this type of service. But, yeah, it's interesting. I I think That's kind of like the business side. What do you think on the emotional side? because there's a couple of considerations I think one of the most obvious things that happens in a negotiation is you get the hardball player. someone who's off the bat, confrontational, aggressive goes in. It's like they're angry at you because you've done something to them you've offended them, but that's usually an opening gambit. It's to basically get you to back down scare you into making concessions you wouldn't normally make if you were calm. Have you seen that in your negotiations, John?

John Byrne [00:12:04]:

seeing people who attempted almost invariably black virus, maybe not at the direct negotiation that you're at, but what time to happen is, there will be pushback later on. But and again, that's that's why I think, you know, in in the lead up to the negotiation. You're better off focusing on the on the strategic area rather than the tactical area. You know, don't don't go for the transactional piece where you can get that aggressive when, you know, trying to get this, I think, this this focus on the relationship because then you're you're less likely to get emotionally involved if you're if you're trying to build a relationship with your person, you know, even if they start to get aggressive or whatever, You're less likely to be so quick to push back and end up in a confrontational negotiation that you're your focus on the relationship, what you'll be probably trying to do is calm them down, whatever is getting them so excited, calm them down, and that's just get back on to it. an equal footing here with the thing. And that can also be, you know, one of the things you you suggest that we're, you know, walking with a supplier who who you know, Florida up the supply chain or or floated down the supply chain who who may be looking to become a competitor, and you don't want to give away too much with the saying again, that's where you don't want to focus too much on the transactional piece because that's where you'll get lost in the weeds. You want to be looking at the strategic, what's in it for them? Why are they being so helpful? I mean, the the classic example being the giant bicycles you know, that they were initially just an outsourced manufacturer. I can't remember the name of the the company that they did. But eventually, that company seemed to want to take less and less strategic involvement in the business, was just focusing on this on the tactics on the transactions with with Giant and eventually introduce Ryan to all their distributors. So then Giant climbed and said, well, hang on a second. what do we need this sort of going before? We're the manufacturer. We now have all the distributors contact That was the only thing the the only thing that the the original company had that made it relevant. Now we have it. We're just gonna stop supplying you and tell the distributors they can take our bikes with our branding or no. And then that I, you know, obviously, I was not involved in those negotiations originally, but I would strongly believe that a large chunk of how the happens to the other company was they were so focused on the transactions, the the the the transaction on negotiations. They were not looking at the bigger picture. They weren't looking strategy. So they never seen it come, you know, and that's that's one of the pieces of the statue, I think, is important to to look at the you know, not just from your point of view, but from the person you're negotiating with from your point of view, what is it that they are likely to be doing? Because you know, you you mentioned about them being very aggressive where maybe they're be they're being too nice. You know, they're they're giving you too bright. They'll wire to give them you too bright. They'll would they do that? You know, that they have to make profits. And if you've walked around that they need to get a certain price, to make those profits under command in the ordinary operation, then you need to question, why are they willing to take losses now? What is that that they're planning. You know, they they will make those profits eventually, and and maybe that's the art they'll be quite open about or maybe they're saying to you, We're giving you this great price now. We're only for 6 months. For them, we all want a higher price. But then again, a lot of the times, they don't say that. They just tell you they're they're giving you this great price. and you jump out and take and then 6 months later, you're stuck with them and they can give you, you know, high prices they want. There's not a lot you can do because

Dante Healy [00:15:56]:

to Volumes to You're locked in. There there's there's a number of ways people lock in customers. So, for example, making it so hard to extract themselves once they're in, for example, on ERP systems. You know, all that cloud hosting getting the data out again is gonna cost you an arm and a leg. Once it's in there. Also, imagine trying even if you do get the data out having to harmonize it. so you can feed it into a brand new system. That's what they tend to play on, and so you have customers who have clients who are forced into forced into a situation where they can't afford the upgrades, but they still have to keep overpaying for the base product. And that's just through the negotiation and, you know, thinking as you say too transactionally. And there are some get out get out of jail clauses. that you can put into negotiations, but they don't cover every scenario. And I think the business disruption is almost more expensive than the and the risk of losing your regular customers through disruption in services is also almost more costly than actually taking the hit further down the road. However, you can do things like indemnity clauses which put the emphasis on a potential customer who might try and steal your club customers' confidentiality agreements. making sure that if there is information sharing that is not used to exploit the business, termination contracts, causes, limitation of liability, and then also the classic force majeure if there's an act of god that prevents one party for from fulfilling their obligations, then then they can actually say, look, not our fault. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:17:54]:

aliens invaded, you know, but think of a lot of those things are are they're kind of when you get to the contracts and that the legal people will will look out for them at that stage, if you're relying on that, your negotiation has failed, you know, in in all honesty, you kind of therefore when things really badly go wrong with with what you have agreed to do, but I I think kind of for the negotiation part before you ever get to the legal you know, handing over some legal teams. There needs to be a sense of, how do you say, Legal is a is a necessary evil, but that should be always the fallback, not the the force behind the team. The negotiation to be successful what you really need to have done is create a good enough relationship that you may need a partner will ever feel they need to go to the legal team to enforce them because if something goes wrong, the relationship is there that they can get back together, renegotiate and come up with a solution. You know? If if the solution is, well, we're just gonna have to put enforce legal requirements, the the negotiation was very, I think, transactional again because the legal parent is starting the transactional. and the relationship wasn't strong enough to come up with a solution that didn't involve getting, you know, liars or solicitors or wherever you want to call them, but anyone are the the wars you're from involved. And, you know, the if if they have to get involved, I mean, they'll they'll be involved in the negotiations polls as well, and and all those set of terms will will and and conditions will get into the contracts. But when I think of negotiations, I'm kind of taking the initial negotiations before you have you you may have a legal representative with you just to make sure that things make sense, but they're not the ones Yo. In the doom, the negotiating, the negotiating is being done by non legal people who know what they're know, talking about representing the company. I know we're trying to build on it. Then we need to build a relationship. The legal people, they don't need to build a relationship. They need to make sure that they're legally

Dante Healy [00:20:03]:

cover their backsides. But then isn't that almost dangerous as well? Because what you can negotiate up front in the large print legal people can easily remove in the fine print sometimes. And -- Yeah. -- that that can also be very dangerous. And Coming to that point, you're absolutely right. However, I think there is a there is something to be said to not just assume a deal's done just because it's verbally agreed. always always check what's in writing before you sign the contracts at the end. I remember one one of the CFOs I used to work directly under. He managed to negotiate a massive deal with the local government to pay for a environmental waste cleanup which they were responsible for for some land we'd acquired. But he I remember thinking he's gonna have a challenge trying to renegotiate the deal. But he spent days even weeks going through contracts and various clauses and he managed to find a some negotiating loopholes, which he managed to shrewdly negotiate with some very very tough negotiators, but he did he he was notorious for doing his homework insider now pouring through all of the legal clauses and then weighing up the pros and cons. I wasn't present during the negotiations but I was very impressed with the outcome, if that makes sense.

John Byrne [00:21:31]:

Yeah. And, yeah, I suppose that's another part of the negotiation is make sure you do have somebody good who don't understand the legal, but, you know, don't don't you know, especially a lot of the the listers will probably be 4 small mid sized companies. They are the head negotiator and Dale, do everything, and you kind of think, well, you know, when you've got the negotiations done, do make sure to get some legal advice as to whether or not, you know, we're all goodwill in the world. There may be clauses in it that, as you said, completely undo what's being negotiated. And that yeah. The contract says something completely different to what your verbal negotiations said. Well, the contract is most legally enforceable. So you you do want to get some legal advice. And, you know, for 1st small companies, that legal advice may not necessarily be having a legal team in house that made me go and see your local solicitor, your local are. But the other way of doing it as well is, you know, especially if it's a standard contract. You know, if it's a standard supply contract, standard purchase contracts, standard employment contract, whatever. know, you you get your standards, template designed, and get some legal advice for that. And then when you go and you negotiate where where people you try to make sure that it's your standard template that's used because at least you know what that says, what the small print in and that is. If you decide to manage to get you to accept their standards contract template, then you need to get that reviewed by somebody who knows the legal and housing because we're all the goodwill in the world of negotiations, building up the best relationship with the person you're negotiating with, you know, it's all great, and it does help for the future. But if something does go wrong, that cannot be walked out through that relationship and it goes to the legal people to fix. It's going to be the terms of the contract, so make sure you do know what those terms were. And not just you thinking that, you know, that you have a legal expert do it because, you know, I mean, I I think and I'm sure you do as well. I think of yourself as pretty on the ball comparison. I I cup on when something doesn't make sense in a in a contract. But a non legal expert, which means there'll be certain phrase of certain terminology don't necessarily name what a normal English speaking person would think they name. Eagle contracts do not use Yeah. Eduardo, there are people trying to get legal contracts to use simple plain English. They don't. And the law of what they say actually does not mean what a normal person would think they mean. A legal person considered men something very different. So, you know, while you hope that if the negotiation was successful, it will never come down to relying on the legal is. Do make sure that you have No matter how great your relationship seems to be, things change, maybe that person you built a relationship with will not be there when things go wrong, and whoever comes in won't have that relationship with you, and we'll just go straight to the legal aid. So make sure you know what the the legal terms are in the negotiations. They they usually will come little bit later in the negotiations. The initial negotiation is they'll come up to a relationship, and then you get down to committee agree. and that's when the legal people will get involved. If you're in a company big enough to have their own, they'll be probably with you from the beginning, but they'll really come into their own then. And if you're from small company that doesn't, that's when you need to just get somebody to cast an eye over and make sure there was nothing there that

Dante Healy [00:25:09]:

You know, cause problems. Completely agree. And extending beyond that when we think about the situation we're in, when we go into a negotiation. We need to think about the context of that negotiation how we're positioned, and then when we're in the negotiation, how we read the room, how we read the people who are negotiating with us, There's a lot to be said for being able to read the signs and the cues from their body language and also their tone of voice as well as what they say, but more so the body language because you're trying to establish that rapport, build that relationship sometimes empathy really helps there in terms of being able to understand what things you can push on and what things do you need to just gently nudge your way into. Because you'll have a whole load of I mean, there's that classic Harvard Batner best alternative to a Nigga -- agreement that helps you bring the negotiation in terms of, well, is this acceptable or not? And do we walk away, or do we just park it and then come back to it, or do we need to really push hard and say, look, that's unreasonable? But at the same time, you need to be able to see what ideally, you wanna get to what are the other party's nonnegotiables and then work around, well, where can we find some sort of alignment here where both parties actually feel like they've got a good deal out of it.

John Byrne [00:26:46]:

And that's that's a key one as well. And I think, you know, there's plenty of books that will give people specific, you know, things like you you just did the best alternative to negotiate agreements. Your your your your minimal accepted some output and, you know, various things like that. So I I there's loads of books that will give people all those things. But I think one of the the better well, not one of the better ones. 1 of the key ones should be you know, you've you've walked out what's the minimum that you can take, that that you consider. There's no point in trying to work that out during an negotiation. You need to know before you go in, this is you know, you need at least this, if not better. We'll also be trying to think about it from the other side's point of view to try and figure out what would they want. And I think, you know, one of the things that worked for me a lot of the time has been Try to think of at least 2 or 3. Don't assume that they are going in from the same point of view as as you. So if it's a You're going in to negotiate with a potential supplier, say, and what's important to you is price. Don't assume that what's important to them is also going to be price. but maybe and kind of think, well, what would be the and you can try and walk real. Right? And this is the the highest price I'm willing to pay. What would be likely to be the lowest price they are willing to take? and then we can see what the, you know, IR day we're in range of each other. We're also trying to think of at least one, if not two, other things that they may be looking for it, however, that maybe price is not what they want. And the reason I say to do that, it's not so much so that you know what they want when you go into negotiations. you don't. You you won't know until you've actually gone into negotiations. Only they know what they want. But if you force yourself to try to think of at least 2, not 3, different possibilities for what they want. It kind of opens your mind a little bit that when you go in and it helps you read the room as you you were mentioning that when you go into the negotiations, you're not just blinkered onto one thing that was important to you, and I'm assuming it's important to them. You're a little bit more open minded, and trying to pick up on the the you know, the the new answers of the negotiation and you suddenly realize, okay. They're not so fixated on the price. Why are they then what do they want? Why do they want then? You know, maybe they're just trying to break into a new market. Well, if that's the case, then the now, but they probably will be for the renegotiations in 6 or 12 months time. Whilst they're established, well, at least you know in advance that this is the case. So You know? Okay. You you don't walk down and take great. I've got brilliant price here. I can now burn all the bridges with all the other squares because I'll never need them again with that. No. Actually, I realized gotten a brilliant price here because they want into the market. In 12 months' time, when they're established, that price will go up. So I want to make sure I don't bore any bridges or other suppliers I may need to go back to the end of the future. Examples like that, you know, I think are are important to just again, it's the overall strategy rather than just focusing on Guam transactional negotiation, beating out of the the bigger picture of arms. But I've seen it I've seen it on built, you know, commercial contract negotiations on,

Dante Healy [00:29:52]:

say, property contracts. You know, you think you're getting a good price, but what you paid for is the gold service. What you get is the bronze service. and what you were hoping for was the platinum service. So suppliers can always drop price, but then there's other things they'll drop like quality, value, time, they'll maybe make it slower. They'll deprioritize it. They may do it in a way that's more risky to quality. which again then damages your value, your reputation in the market, and then your level of trustworthiness. So Again, yeah, maybe they'll offer a lowball price to get the business in, but you also need to hold them accountable for the specification of work that you're gonna have the usually, there's a disconnect between them by, especially in large companies. You've got a a requester who's someone from the operations, a production manager, a logistics manager. They know what they want. But then when they hand over that speck to the buyer, the buyer actually goes out, market tests it, gets a few options usually because The suppliers maybe have take a liberal view on what does that specification mean in terms of Is it exactly this or are we just delivering a result? And then they quote on that basis because they think, oh, well, We can we can lose some money here, but we can make some money on this part of the contract. And then it becomes very interesting to try and see Where do you end up? Do you actually end up having to adjust the pricing or just reduce the value of what you've actually paid for? which I I've seen both both happen. And to in a lot of cases, you even end up with fraud reviews because you wonder was there some collusion. Hang on a minute. These guys paid for 5 components. They only got 4, but they're saying that the the full components were much better quality, but you get another engineer to audit that. They say, well, actually, it's it's exactly what they paid for, and they They lost out on the 5th piece, which they didn't maybe need in the end, but they put it in because Again, this is where collusion comes in. Right? You know, you've got your favorite supply. You add in another another requirement and then 5 suppliers bid, but the one you want, you tell them, don't worry about that 5th piece. We don't really need it. Just just bid on the full parts.

John Byrne [00:32:27]:

I would say there are ethical problems with the the company and the negotiator

Dante Healy [00:32:31]:

has involved there, you know, well beyond what what -- Well, this is outside of the outside of the buyer, actually, the buyer's blissfully unaware. That's what's gonna happen. It's usually a backdoor deal between the request that and the supplier. But, yeah, there are I mean, you think about it. There are ethical considerations, which, I guess, are outside the scope of this discussion. I I think we're trying to see and yeah. I mean, obviously, I'm trying to make it as real world as possible, but, yeah, these things happen, and -- I know. -- the examples are, like, think of where negotiations, you know, kind

John Byrne [00:33:11]:

of didn't look at the negotiator, didn't look at the bigger picture and got stung for it. We're we're over here in Ireland. There's the suppliers of, like, they kind of do a lot for big offices, and there's there's a number of them, big offices, and schools, and educational establishments. They supply all the cleaning stuff for the cleaners, not so toilet rolls, you know, all all the rest of it. But the the things I noticed a lot of them back good few years. They're probably still doing it now. I don't know. They were going in to and getting the the deal mainly with the title role and those that are are laid in. And what they were doing was giving this great deal much cheaper than than any of the competitors Well, the title roles only worked with a specific title role holder. So they would offer to go in and replace all their title role holders for free with these new ones. But they would only want to sell the title to fit those hovers, and you got the great price for whatever it was 6 months. at the end of that 6 months now, suddenly the price share up. But you were stuck with them because you had these five role holders, the only held five role they were selling. Yeah. You couldn't replace them all because they happily and and, you know, voluntarily, when they replace them with it there once they took away your old ones, and they they got rid of them for you so you wouldn't have to worry about, you know, disposing of them and stuff like that. All same, really got a real great way in for the negotiators who are transactionally. They got really cheap trial role, but they weren't looking at the bigger picture. Hang on a second. If they're changing all these, we're stuck with them. We'll never be it'll be very difficult to move anywhere else And then, obviously, yeah, that was their their aim, but they were also supplying all of the other stuff then. But they were a little bit more expensive for all of the other stuff. where the deal was with the title roads, and that was, you know, that particular thing. But the negotiators for the purchaser, They got into many places whether they were officer buildings. They were educational establishments and they were looking too transactional. They're saying 6 months out, like, half priced title roll, which was their biggest expense because lots of toilets and and, yeah, constantly, especially in educational systems where we had the students or not. But then at the end of all, they they were paying a bit more for all the other because you just use the 1 supplier, the same person ran the title role, bring all the other stuff. But the overall, they were getting there all cheaper because of the title role. But then after 6 months, or 12 months, whichever. I can't remember what the the tariffs are. Solid roll shot up in price. Everything else is still a little bit more expansive. Now it's also a side roll. But it was very difficult for them to get out of that contract because now there was certainly a big upfront expense up. They'd have to take down themselves all these new toilet roll haulers and replace them with brand new ones, and that was a big expense when you're talking about a big building with lots of tiles. And and, you know, but it was kind of one of those things. that I I was walking in a place at the time that had offices in 1 of the it wasn't it was an office space show that they had. And the they themselves didn't do it. They didn't look after the the office manager, you know, did that. And it was the whole kind of campus area of the offices. I've done it. And I I went in to to use the toilet one time after the I was the first thing that jumped out to me was, how the hell was this this work. You know, you're I'm looking at the the the tile hole and the barrel hole and the thing. There's only one I've I've never seen that type of toilet roll before.

Dante Healy [00:36:35]:

It's not something that you could just even run down on a panic to the shop and buy normal toilet roll straight in, it wouldn't straight in it. And can't think as if one of those ones where the hole the middle hole is exceptionally large, and that's why it's like yeah.

John Byrne [00:36:47]:

was exceptionally small, actually, because what used to happen was it always break when you'd be pulling, you think well, yeah, there there was only one supplier at that time. Anyway, maybe now. Broom the other players have got an upward of it. But at that stage, there was only one supplier off that side. But I'm looking at it, I'm thinking, you're it means you're you know, I I said it to the office manager, you know, I talked to him, Why did you just do that? Because he used to have no choice now. He's have to keep buying from them because -- When we just sort of place it, tell him that all this You know -- Yeah. But that would that's a very expensive thing to do. You know, when you've replaced them in all the the cubicles in the whole -- Uh-huh. Yeah. -- and that's You know, now suddenly you have to replace all of them, and and that's gonna cost a fortune because they did afford them for free, but their own ones ain't, but they're not gonna take their own ones out and give you somebody else is operating. Can you switch suppliers and get them to -- Well, that's the old that's the older suppliers were doing the same thing, but No supplier would do that offer unless they had some kind of -- That incentive. Yeah. Yeah. They they needed a bespoke kind of hole where that they are the only ones to supply it. And then because then they've let's just lock the end with them. But, you know, it's it's yeah, that's one specific example. That's the type of examples to watch out for. You know, maybe not with your your child role holders. I I imagine now everybody is doing the same types of a title role so they can all compete with each other regardless if we bought the the initial. But there'll be other things like that. It's, you know, more day to day, mundane stuff. But people will be trying you know, if something seems too good to be true, there's a reason why it is, and, you know, that that could be one of them. They're they're looking to lock you in.

Dante Healy [00:38:21]:

Well, that's a trap, isn't it? A negotiation trap that you wouldn't really know about

John Byrne [00:38:26]:

unless you have -- But I suppose very frequently. I mean, that's of all the things, that's a pretty you know, obvious one that that you think is so basic. And then you wonder why your sundry costs are going up, monthly skyrocketing,

Dante Healy [00:38:39]:

Hang on a minute. People can't be getting to the toilet more, or maybe they are. Maybe we cut down on our suit budget instead. That's not mad. But it's it's so true. I mean, once you get once you get into a certain situation of trust, then people become complacent and they're not checking. And then suddenly you find out you've massed overpaid for certain bits and bobs. Maybe just on average, you just end up generally paying more than the market price. I I mean, we had some situations where we ended up for cutting off contracts with suppliers, and then Having realized after the event we'd actually pay for stuff we hadn't even received because they were on the sort of, what you call it, CDI payment system, where they shit where they issue delivery notes, the delivery notes would be signed off by the the warehouse manager, and we get all these sundry inventory, which is off the books because it's not like It's all expense. Right? So there's no there's no inventory for toilet roll like you say light bulbs. fixtures and things, etcetera. They're just in a warehouse sitting somewhere, which can be drawn upon. But if someone stalled, say, I don't know, attend toilet rolls, they no one would miss it. No one would even know.

John Byrne [00:40:09]:

I think that then, you're you're going way beyond negotiations into the ethics and trust award. You just look at our styles or thoughts there. Generally, yeah.

Dante Healy [00:40:17]:

No. It's just general internal control. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:40:20]:

I'd say. But from the negotiation point of view, it's it's kind of always you know, you should have been able to see that coming, and not this theft. The theft. There's something, you know, bring me the lock in piece. You know, they're giving you a zubler the deal. What's the catch? Well, there's the catch, the lock in piece, which means Yeah. Fine. Maybe you'll still choose to go with them, but at least be aware that you're gonna be in, and this is what you're gonna be exposed to. Exactly. And and the simple rule of thumb is if this deal doesn't work out, how much is it gonna cost to get out of it? Yeah. And in that case, that example I gave, the cost was going to be having to replace either trial rollovers. with with with Nuance, and so that you can buy off somebody else. Now, you know, if somebody had paid attention at the beginning, a, maybe they wouldn't have gotten into that deal in the 4th place because they'd have realized, or, b, at the very least, that it said, yeah, you can replace all the Tyler or Oliver's where all the ones that are there, I don't want you to throw them away. I want you to give them to me and where I put them and store them somewhere. So then 6 months' time, I'd have the option to put them back. And, you know, if if if the price went up too much, you know, I wasn't happy with the price. Yeah. But again, it's it's just don't look at the transaction. Don't focus purely on the transactional. because the transactional there of the negotiation was, they were getting the side roll for about half the price that would normally cost. So the overall cost will go down. great deal. Let's do it. But if they'd looked at the strategic, the overall what's our relationship going to be like? Well, our relationship is gonna be great. We're getting a good deal for 6 months. But in 6 months time, they get it for the price or whatever they want, and we're locked in. So there's the strategy that to what the opponents they did not get opponents. Sorry. I shouldn't again you I shouldn't use that word for negotiations. That's what the -- Don't win lose. It's women.

Dante Healy [00:42:10]:

You're collaborating.

John Byrne [00:42:12]:

And then so our our partners are, you know, on the on the the supplier side, in this case, Their strategy is to to basically get us locked in with them. That might be fine as long as we're getting a good deal from Maybe we'll accept it. Maybe we won't. We're at least to go in where our eyes open. Whereas by focusing on the transactional, you're going in, Georgia, as closed today.

Dante Healy [00:42:41]:

And this is it. I mean, you you quite rightly said, and that was probably you being anchored to that previous deal. where it was a win lose scenario where your the company you were talking to had loss. But, usually, you're going into it you should do your research on the person who you're about to negotiate with before you enter into an agreement just see what previous customers, if you can, talk to them about how they do business or the lessons learned, what other tricks of the trade I think reputation will carry across in the industry, especially if you're if if you're dealing with people who are established industry players, There's gonna be people who'll be able to tell you more about them, how they work, how they operate. And I'd say if you can get more than one view on it, because not everyone's gonna be all all rosy. They will treat different customers differently as well. Your fans -- Yeah. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:43:40]:

No. It's torn up. Sometimes, it'll torn out that, but the people you're gonna be negotiating with where the book is having a great I'm trying to be honest, the person you asked was trying to be the greedy one and trying to to say, you know, do a 0 sum game and take all the benefit for themselves. so they walked away from it. And and you're getting, you know, tolls from the bad guys point of view type of thing. So You know, and so so, yeah, try and get more than 1. And and again, like I said earlier, just try to figure out, well, what would be what what is it that they might want if they're You know, if price is not their their biggest same thing, the mortgage and that goes for everything. We've kind of been using examples, I suppose, or negotiations being a purchaser or a seller. And but, yeah, as we as you said, at the intro, it's not it's it's everything. It's having the Queen employments, you know, negotiation. And and and there it goes, you know, the perfect example. And I was the the the person there, and I often have, you know, did the annual review with my boss at the time. Many many years ago, and he kind of knew You know, he he he'd lead me to last. There was a few different groups that would need to be done, but I was a group of 1. And he always lead me to last, and it would depend on how badly strong he'd gotten for from the other groups, just for pay rises, And because when he got to me, he knew, you know, we there there was the relationship had built up, there was very much trust that he knew. And I I knew why why I was always left to last as well. There was no you know, then I I I figured that out pretty quick, but he figured that out pretty quick as well to lead me for last time. It was it won't be out for both of us. Because for me, it wasn't necessarily always going to be. I want the biggest pay rise I can get. What I'm I'm worried to do is if you if you if you've been stung badly from everybody else. He kinda keeps pay rise for me down a bit where I get extra less homeless. So by the time I finished in that job, I had about 50% more days holidays each year than anybody else because they just kept going for money, money, money, money, whereas while we had the negotiation, I was like, oh, I I kind of you know, I can yeah. We get a bit of a pay rise to cover inflation and that, but I like some holidays. That was the the thing. So there there was it was a win win there. Perfect. He got to keep his Yeah. The country yeah. That because then he could cut down on on there a little bit. But I got more holidays then than everybody else, and I was fine with that because what I did at that time didn't require me to be there all the time. I could I could have yeah. Basically, it ended up with tinker. When you take in, Christmas with everybody got up. Right? I had it for 2 months all the days of the year. I had 6 weeks that I got to pick, plus 2 weeks at Christmas, whereas everybody else got 4 weeks on on 2 weeks at Christmas. Yeah. It was always a really handy job, young 2 weeks of Christmas not coming out of all this. But, you know, that that was so, you know, to know where your negotiating partner is coming from, what's likely to to be, their motivation means that you He'll be able to, in most cases, have a win win situation that everybody walks away quite happy with, you know, that nobody's had to really give up at major. They got what they wanted on both sides. And, you know, doing things like that just by building up the relationship, getting to know the other sides, referential spacing, you know, what what would they want. won't always be about money a lot of time. We'll be about money. But there are little areas where you you can, you know, And the same way is for our purchaser, kind of a seller purchaser type of scenario, that maybe, you know, the the person And he was saying in services industries, you're negotiating with somebody to provide a service for you. Yeah. There might be some, you know, possibilities there that they won't be looking for the highest price. What they might be looking for is introductions to some of your your other clients or customers or contacts. that they can sell those areas. Yeah. You're out. So so just that that's why I think it's it is key to try and look at it from strategic point of view. And maybe they won't be going into the negotiation thinking that way. Maybe that's something you can suggest to them. You know, maybe they went in thinking just purely transaction. And you can say, right, look, you know, I have an idea here. I can't afford the money you're looking for, but this is where I can afford. And what I can also do there is I can introduce you too. You know? And and and things like that that if you if you've put a bit of strategic top rather than just purely transactions into the negotiation before you've gone into it, gives you a little bit more. You'll have to always walk out. Well, a lot of time will go.

Dante Healy [00:48:27]:

Yeah. And at the end of the day, it's all about resources. Because, ultimately, when you're negotiating with colleagues, whether it's your boss, your peers, your reports, You're talking about how can I get more of your time, and, usually, sometimes, the way you compensate them for their time is is is money, but it can be, you know, giving them paid holidays or maybe discretionary bonuses, maybe training. So things that may be and again, training can be a bit tricky because some employees, you know, that they're angling the training so that they can get more qualified and leave as quickly as possible so there's a balance to be had there. But, again, you want them to be motivated as well. So again, it's performance versus what's the cost. And again, trying to get the value for the business. So regardless of whether they're there for the long term or the short term or whatever term they're there, you want to get the most out of them in terms of results. If they're just messing around, well, then you're not managing.

John Byrne [00:49:34]:

And you just question. Yeah. You do need to be careful with those types of negotiations as well. if you're going in and thinking what they want is money, money, money, money money -- Yep. -- and yours. Negotiating with your your report, your your subordinating the job on All you're doing is paying them lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of money. But if that's not what's important to them, maybe what's important to them is recognition. Maybe all they want you to do is recognize the walker down and say, thank you, you know, well done, job well done, little things like that. But if you're not recognizing that in the negotiations of all you're doing is strong money, how much you end up a very demotivated employee who's just there for 1 you know, so it does a lot of things. I think every not everybody, love people that are in negotiations go in purely looking at the transaction, the money. We are regardless of what it is or or the to the time and, you know, like, they you'll go in and you'll negotiate with somebody internal. You're not you're not their employer. You're not giving them a pay rise. You're negotiating for them to do a project internally within the company. But what you want is a project done as quickly as possible. that they want they may want something else, though. But, you know, they may be willing to do all the to try and get it done as quickly as possible. But you need to offer something to them. Why would they want to do that? Why would they want to put themselves under that much pressure? Why would they not want to push back and get twice as long to do it? you know, in in those situations then you have to think, well, what's in it for them? What can I offer them? You know, you probably can't offer them money if you're not there. The the HR there or something. You may be able to offer them something else, you know, recognition. The maybe there's another project. that they really want to be part of, and you can offer them, well, when this project is finished, then we can move on to that project and Now only do something like that if you're genuine, you have the authority and the power to do it, and you're intending to back them up because of you If you promised them the the opportunity to do their project, they were to over getting your project done and then didn't follow through on that in the future. You've just born so many bridges that chances are they're out the door, and you're never gonna be able to get them again, you know, to to do that. And so all you make, you know, negotiating your agreements like that when you can actually fulfill them. But but, again, you know, little things like that, even in general, we're in the the company at that. Yeah. It doesn't involve money at all. It's it's very strange, but but try to think about it from the other side, Spider Gero, on a strategic level. what what might they want. And even if that's not what they come in looking for, it's something you might be able to offer.

Dante Healy [00:52:10]:

Absolutely. Makes sense. That's great. I think we're probably at a point where we've covered most things. Obviously, we haven't gone into the nitty gritty of tactics because there's things that you can do. There's gambit. There's things you know, there's there's techniques which you can do, and just for The purposes of completeness, let me list a few. And, John, if you have any more, just let me know so you can always threaten to walk away from a deal, You know, that is a gambit. If you don't mean it, sometimes people will threaten to walk away to try and force some concessions. There's bait and switch, which is ethically questionable, but you you tempt people in, you lure them in, By offering them something desirable, but then you switch it with something less desirable in the end. So, again, it leaves the other part feeling cheated, I wouldn't recommend that. It's bringing 2 people into a negotiation and playing good cop, bad cop, someone being more aggressive The other guy being more conciliatory saying, look, I can get you this, but this guy might not like it. But, you know, I'll try and, you know, getting you to sort of, like, again, frame it from a position of, oh, well, whatever I can see is not the worst deal ever. because it could have been a lot worse. There's also stonewalling where you refuse, and then that frames the conversation of I'm superior to you is also changing the rules midway through a negotiation, changing terms in order to gain an advantage, Then creating a sense of urgency, look, I've got a plane to catch in 30 minutes. Let's wrap this deal up as quickly as possible and getting people to except terms without fully considering them, and then maybe heaven forbid using personal attacks and emotional manipulation. accusing them of being unethical, cheap, dishonest, you know, that sort of thing. That can obviously be used to shame someone into backing down and again, accepting a deal that is not in their favor. John, anything else you could add to that? Well, actually, we're we're a lot of them that that you you

John Byrne [00:54:28]:

pointed out, you know, our tactics at Dunheim. A lot of them are actually marketing tactics as well. Yeah. Things like that are rushing. Me, you know, this offers only on the table for so long. You you know, are on gone off to get playing. So what I'd kind of suggest to people is, you know, do read up on on marketing tactics as well as negotiate. I can see off mine and off a lot of over Not so much I I I I wouldn't, like, as you said, or, you know, bait and switch things like that. There are ethical problems or alarm. And I'd be inclined to to recommend to people, try to build rep or build a relationship and build trust. That's the key to negotiating. But be aware of all these other tactics. Not so much so that you can use the man over people so that you can recognize if somebody is trying to use that on you. Yeah. And then the other piece of it is that the the biggest piece is practice. Practice. Practice. You know, look for where you have negotiations, and you have them every day, so you just probably didn't realize there were allegations. pay attention, recognize when you're having an association, and use a practice like the example you gave at the the early on about since your first example, actually, the graduate student doing it and going in and not having to clue them, the the more senior person getting an even higher discount. But that graduate will have learned an awful lot there from from that. And, well, hopefully, we're looking into law, and we'll pick up by it. But not everybody will have the opportunity to to do that with a more senior person there to learn from, which means you just have to learn to trial an error. So, you know, just recognize when you're having a negotiation and see what working, what's not, and then keep keep going like that. Keep paying attention so that you do know what's working and what's not that you don't make the same mistakes in the next negotiation. And, you know, it might give you a short call area on in your career. We're at least later on in your career. You you you're really working with those here because you've recognized you know, what was working, what wasn't in all your negotiations, whether they be big formal negotiations or small informal negotiations.

Dante Healy [00:56:22]:

Brilliant. Thank you, John. Completely agree. So thank you everyone for listening. I will ensure that we summarize all the key points in the show notes. You've been listening to John Byrne and myself, Dante Healey. Hopefully, we've given you some food for thought. And by following those tips, any business beginner can start to develop their negotiation skills and become more confident in their ability to negotiate that effectively. John, thank you as always for your time.

John Byrne [00:56:58]:

This

Dante Healy [00:57:04]:

podcast shares experiences and insights gained from business, IT And Digital Finance, hosted by 2 leaders who have made the leap themselves The show is dedicated to helping listeners think differently about their career aspirations.