Dante Healy [00:00:00]:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Business Breaks. I'm Dante Healy. And today, we're diving into one of the most critical, but often overlooked skills for project managers, and that's communication. Whether you're leading a project from the front or influencing from the sidelines, how you communicate can make or break your success. As always, joining me is John Byrne, and together we'll explore the internal and external challenges PMs face. So from managing self consciousness and ego, to balancing complex stakeholder dynamics. So let's get into this and explore the art of communication as a project manager.

Dante Healy [00:00:43]:

So, John, where shall we start? I think a good place to start is with yourself, know yourself, and understanding how self awareness impacts communication, and how project managers can try and shift to a more situational awareness mindset and build influence through those subtle non authoritative means. A big part of that is probably trying to move off yourself and being so self conscious and trying to actually get into the present. So have you found that as starting out as a project manager overthinking things internally, but not really focusing on the situation?

John Byrne [00:01:29]:

Yeah. It it can happen certainly early on in in careers. Actually, even as you progress in careers because you know, yourself, the way project managers are often brought in to manage projects that they may not have the technical expertise of the subject matter expert, and therefore, they're almost second guessing everything that they're they're doing because they don't have that in-depth knowledge. But but their job isn't necessary to have that in-depth knowledge. It's to manage the project. So Yeah. But, yeah, the you know, I can I can see that, and I have seen that that overthinking things, second guessing yourself, being afraid to to speak up because, you know, you're in a meeting with a whole load of experts? You don't you know, people can want to avoid sounding dumb by asking a silly question, but that's your job as a project manager. You would need to ask silly well, you know, questions that well, there's rarely a silly question in all honesty.

John Byrne [00:02:25]:

No matter how simple it may seem to you, that's your job as a project manager to ask those questions because when you then go to the steering committee, the sponsors, and all that, they're even further removed than you. So they're going to be asking the silly questions, and you need to know the answers to them. So you should have asked them first effectively. You know, I I think, yeah, to to

Dante Healy [00:02:47]:

I think it's obvious, isn't it? It it's something that appears obvious to you because you think, well, logically, you'd be doing the project or executing or you'd assume a lot. And sometimes asking those silly questions is really just reconfirming assumptions and just making sure also that your team understand the assumptions, and they're not going off on mad tangents as well.

John Byrne [00:03:12]:

That's it. And, you know, part of communication, even asking the questions can be simple and as simple as, why can't we do it this way instead? There might be a very valid reason why you can't do it that way instead, but it could also just simply be because the people doing it never thought that it would be wanted that way. So, you know, asking questions that you think may make you look foolish won't really make you look foolish, but it is a a major, self conscious thing to overcome, especially early on in your career. As you get a little bit more experienced, usually, you'll outgrow that. You'll have realized that by not asking these questions, you're leaving yourself open to an awful lot of hassle later on in the project and early on. That that's been my experience that, you know, when I've seen people, you can almost guess how long they've been doing it by how how many question. Foolish they're willing to be to look in front of the the the other meeting people. How about yourself? What what your example, so what have your experience has been over your career?

Dante Healy [00:04:12]:

Yeah. Well, when I started out as a project manager, I'd already been a manager of multiple teams of various sizes between, say, four to six people up to as many as 25. So departments that maybe had three levels. And then when I went into project management for the start, it was a challenge because you come into a role, and even if I'm project managing a project where I'm like a finance transformation, where I know finance. So I worked across accounting, financial analysis, internal audit, and I'm supposed to be an expert at that. But project management is a different skill set, and especially understanding process reengineering, even if you've seen it on a factory floor. When you're doing it in finance, even if you're familiar with managing a department, and you've actually prepared accounts, you've managed transactions yourself. It's a whole different ballgame.

Dante Healy [00:05:08]:

So there's an element of protecting your credibility, but also protecting your ego. And it's being careful not to overstep the mark and understand which is which. Are you really just avoiding looking stupid because you're scared and it's your own personal fear and insecurity? Or are you trying to make sure that people are confident in you enough that they don't kill the project or remove you from it? So it's it's that fine balance between ensuring that you're not you're being effective, but you're not you're not being over defensive when, you know, things are being challenged and you're being questioned. Because people want to have that comfort, especially people who are investing large amounts of time and resources into the project. But at the same time it's also making sure that you you show that you know at least what you're doing or you can communicate the situations as they happen. Because I think the key is when you present bad news, you should be aware of it before anyone else is. And if you're presenting good news and someone tells you contradictory information, then I think as a project manager you failed. So it's important to be aware when things happen.

Dante Healy [00:06:32]:

You're you're basing it off the information you had to hand. If someone else has better information or maybe they're just throwing a few curveballs out there because they heaven forbid, want to undermine you, you have to also recognize that as well. So it's that there's there's different scenarios where it can be it can be just incidental to the carrying out of your duties, but it can be something more sinister in more political environments. But you can't overthink it. You have to be professional, and you have to work with the information. If you're missing information, you have to admit when you're running with assumptions as well. And I think the most important thing is delivering the information that the audience needs rather than one worrying too much about how do I look and sound. I think that's the most important mindset shift to take.

Dante Healy [00:07:27]:

I mean, have you experienced that as well, John, in terms of managing projects in different environments where you have a certain culture that can be more toxic than one that is more collaborative?

John Byrne [00:07:38]:

No. I've I've probably been lucky in a lot of the projects I've walked in. Everybody has there hasn't been a lot of, political, you know, stuff in the project team. And, anyway, outside it, yes, has had slight impacts on our project, but internal, they're they're they're wearing tiny. But, yeah, getting the getting the the balance right between, you know, being overconfident and thinking you know all the answers and being underconfident and thinking you don't know anything, the truth is somewhere in between, and that's what what you kind of have to strive to to match to to get there. That, yeah, it it's, I suppose one of the key things where it's a blend. Communication and project management is got the same challenges that communication generally will have, but, also, a lot of the things are are leadership things as well because a project manager is supposed to lead the project. And and yeah.

John Byrne [00:08:40]:

Well, I I have seen sometimes people over overfocus on how they, you know, how they look and sound. They almost have a a beautiful presentation put together to, you know, give people the information that but they don't actually know how to do this. They've rehearsed giving this. They haven't,

Dante Healy [00:09:04]:

It becomes robotic almost, I guess.

John Byrne [00:09:06]:

Yeah. And they they haven't really they haven't got the understanding of what it is that they're present, which means then when people start asking them questions, if they don't ask them the questions that they prepared for, they're slumped. Yeah. And that can be a thing. Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:09:18]:

We Or they'll blag it.

John Byrne [00:09:20]:

They'll they'll if they can blag it, great. They but more often, they can't. I've I've I've seen people that have just focused on these are the and they have their sample questions. And if somebody asks them a question that's not on the their list, they actually they it it completely undermines the whole presentation because they can't blag it even. You know, that if they could blag it, people might believe that they knew the answers. You know, I'm not saying that you have to know every answer, but you you need to be honest enough for people to say, actually, I don't know the answer to that. Can I get back to you afterwards and then go and find out what the answer is? But but be prepared to be asked something that you weren't really expecting. Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:10:00]:

There is curveball questions that come out as well. And it's not that people are deliberately trying to have a gotcha moment, but

John Byrne [00:10:10]:

No. I mean, like, in

Dante Healy [00:10:11]:

but everyone has a perspective. And Yeah. Other other other stakeholders have different levels of comfort and different interests, you know. So

John Byrne [00:10:21]:

That's it. And I mean, it can be just, you know, if you're doing it with the the steering committee or something like that, that you've got a few people on the steering committee. And you're coming out of it from the project sponsors point of view probably because that's who you'll be dealing with most. But then somebody else on the committee, they're not asking you this question deliberately to throw you off. They just start thinking about things from a completely different angle that you may not have caught. And now when that happens, again, like I said, you you know, you you need to have enough confidence in yourself to be able to say, I actually don't know the answer to that. Can I follow-up with you after the meeting? I'll I'll get back to you with with the answer. You know, nobody expects you to have every single answer.

John Byrne [00:10:59]:

But sometimes people, you know, especially when they're starting out, either try to blag it like you you you mentioned, you know, where they they don't know the answer, but they try to but but that'll be found out. That's noticed straight away, especially if the person asking the question actually knows what type of answer they they should be getting. Or or or people like that that particular example where, it wasn't me, but the person completely froze. They were asked something that wasn't on their list of what they thought were gonna be the follow-up questions, that they had lovely notes and and done. At that time, I was a subject matter expert in in one of the projects that we were doing. I wasn't the project manager. But, like, it was a beautiful presentation. It was so smooth.

John Byrne [00:11:41]:

It was so done. And this person had everything prepared for a whole list of, like, I'd seen their preparation work, a whole list of, potential follow-up questions. And person, the the thing asked them a question that was not on that list, and it just froze them. They didn't even you know, I I I was able to help them out a little bit at that particular meeting because the question came in an area where I was the subject matter expert. So while I didn't actually know the answer to the question off the top of my head, I was able to just step in. I could see they were they froze. So I stepped in, and I just kind of said to the old, well, I I that's under my, remit, but I don't know the the answer off the top of my head. Can I get back to you where and the person was delight you know, very happy with that? And then when I follow-up with them after the meeting and I gave them the answer, they were delighted.

John Byrne [00:12:28]:

That was it. You know? Yeah. Didn't deal with deliberately to throw the part the project manager off. They just that was what popped into their heads. They just what what's the story with that? And, it was just something that project manager had to offer because it wasn't the sponsor who asked. It was actually the sponsor's manager who which I think put him under a bit more pressure as well, which is probably why he went blank and just didn't think to say that because it was the next level up again. It was, you know, I think it was the CFO actually of the company at the time.

Dante Healy [00:12:55]:

Yeah. It happens. I mean, everyone's trying to add value, and getting getting their attention is a good thing, really. So it it can be tough if you haven't prepared questions or thought through what questions could be asked. But then, sometimes preparation is is needed, and just thinking through really what's the story behind your progress, and where you are right now in your project, versus actually being able to think on your feet, and actually think through when questions come. But if you, in theory, if you've done your due diligence, and maybe it is a question like, have you considered the impact on this stakeholder group? And you can say, no. We haven't worked on that yet, but it's a great point, and we will follow-up, that sort of thing.

John Byrne [00:13:42]:

And and you just kind of have to accept you're never going to have every answer no matter how well prepared. Like in that particular case, as I said, he the the the project manager was extremely well prepared. They had even come through a whole list of things. They they knew what the stakeholder analysis was. They they knew who was gonna be at the meeting. They they knew everything. They just were not ready ready for that particular question. And I can't even remember what the question exactly was.

John Byrne [00:14:06]:

It wasn't truly relevant to the project. It was just one of these curious questions. Oh, when we did that, what would you know? So it was something along those lines, that he was thinking. So he was probably obviously thinking of another project maybe that he could start up about when we were finished there. But he just wasn't he was expecting questions to do specifically with his project as opposed to do tan a tangent to his project, and it's real. But it was an answer that he could've done if he's just not there in that meeting. So, you know, just for people to realize that no matter how well prepared you are for any kind of meetings or that, if if that's where the communication is going, you may be thrown with something that, you weren't expecting, or you just went blank at the wrong time. But just say it and and and move on and follow-up after the meeting.

John Byrne [00:14:48]:

You don't necessarily have to have all the answers there and then on the top of your head.

Dante Healy [00:14:52]:

Yeah. Exactly. It's not about how you look coming back to the point originally made. Although, sometimes project managers feel a bit exposed because they're trying to influence without necessarily having the formal law authority. So that means just making sure that they're managing their credibility, Also, the relationships with the various stakeholders. And when you're in high stakes meetings, like presenting to very senior people who could potentially adversely impact your project if they're not convinced it's the right thing, It's also about reading the room, and understanding the power dynamics across the various groups, especially if it's complex, and impacts multiple functions. I guess that's the other thing, is being able to communicate the goals of the project in a way that aligns with as many of your key and certainly all your key stakeholders, to make sure that you're capturing what their expectations are. And it might not be that you've read their expectations.

Dante Healy [00:15:57]:

You may be gathering the feedback from them based on the the expectations and the goals of your project. So communicating from your executive sponsor, down to the other executive team members and their peers, and helping them get clarity on what you're doing. So hopefully, you can engage their support and get momentum for what you're trying to achieve. And a lot of that is through how you frame what you're doing. So making sure that you get the tone, the context right, probably driving value, and then ideally aligning it to how it can benefit them. And guiding those conversations away from, say, conflicts around priorities and resources. But, just saying that this can be this is the right thing, and and selling. Again, there's an element of actually promotion in that.

Dante Healy [00:16:57]:

Have you have you found that beyond, say, going for funding approval? Because I know I've been putting together decks for project requests for funding or even scope changes, which usually involve increasing the scope because there's additional requirements emerging. So, yeah, there's there's there's an element of, yeah, if you need more money, it's it's usually on the understanding that there's additional value to be had from the initiative if you can extend what you're doing. Does that does that come into it for you?

John Byrne [00:17:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. It can. Especially, I suppose it it it is. It's it's knowing you know, as you said, you're you're kind of selling a little bit, especially when you're looking for, you know, the initial the initial business case to get, funding approval or scope changes. That's almost like you're you're trying to sell there. You're trying to sell this new, you know, thing. You're you're selling the, the initiative to to to the team.

John Byrne [00:17:57]:

And and but having to you know, if you're setting the frame type of thing, the the context of discussions, that's where those types of things when you're looking for funding of people, you you are almost in salesperson mode. Yeah. When you're then updating in regular meetings, you need to stop selling at that stage and start imparting information to people.

Dante Healy [00:18:18]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:18:20]:

And the two are very different types of meetings, very different types of communication. And then you've got another type then again when when it's training and that that that's being set up that there again, you're not trying to sell something to the people that you're training. You're not trying to, you're also not trying to just impart information. You're actually trying to impart, you know, clear instructions to people. This is how to use the system. And they're, you know, there's lots of different meeting styles and meeting types and that, but there are three different kind of complete approaches effectively to communications that, the want type will not work for them, and project managers need to be kind of a master of all of them.

Dante Healy [00:19:01]:

Yeah. Informing, influencing, instructing.

John Byrne [00:19:04]:

Yeah. Exact and you need to be able that they take different communications, things to do it, and project managers need to be good at all three. And that's where that's where sometimes I can see project managers, even experienced project managers falling down a little bit that they're good at one of them, and they try to use that technique for all of them.

Dante Healy [00:19:26]:

Yeah. It's not a one size fits all hammer. You have to be very dynamic in your communication style, as you say, depending on the situation. And again, maybe it's balancing out different it's all about it's not binary. It's not you have to be all internally focused versus externally focused. You have to balance out how much of it is knowing knowing what's going on within your project versus trying to understand, well, what is the stakeholder looking for?

John Byrne [00:19:58]:

And it it it can be a little bit you know, we went into all the details. We we probably intimidate people, but, it it it is detailed, but it's not you you you you can kinda pick her up as you go. But apart from those three tech you know, the the the the three, areas where you're communicating. The other bits as well are who you're communicating to and adjusting it for that. So, like, the top level, your executive sponsors, boss, you know, the CFO doesn't need to know as much information as the the executive sponsor themselves does. The the IT person needs different information to the business leads. Mhmm. You know? So you just need to, adapt adapt your style depending on whether you're, you know, constructing and forming or influencing, but also adapt the amount of detail, the amount of not yeah.

John Byrne [00:20:52]:

Information to who it is, the the role that they play, how interested are they. That's all your stakeholder analysis, but a lot of people tend to they do a stakeholder analysis, and then they'll completely ignore it when they're doing their communicating. And, you know, communicating needs to take into account who your stakeholders are, what are you trying to do with those stakeholders, and how much detail do they need, and adapt your communication style and and the information you're imparting to each of those groups. So it doesn't have to be on an individual basis, but they can probably put them into groups that, you know, this group doesn't really need doesn't really care about detail. They just care, are we on budget? Are we on time?

Dante Healy [00:21:34]:

Yeah. Very true. Very true. And, yeah, we should we should put that matrix up in a handout.

John Byrne [00:21:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was the the standard matrix, you know,

Dante Healy [00:21:43]:

as well. It is the stakeholder may communication matrix. You map them, and then you determine, you know, author influence and interest and you say, if if if you if you're high high influence and high interest you you constantly communicate and you engage them. If it's high influence but low interest, you keep them informed every so often. High interest, low influence, you you keep you you frequently update them. And then low interest, low influence, you just ignore them. Or unless they really need to be informed.

John Byrne [00:22:22]:

That's it. And then the the the standard, the little breakdowns down within them. So, like, if somebody is high high impact and high in, you know, somebody you need to be constantly communicating with, with those people, you also just try and take into account who who are they, what type of person are they. You'll get to know that from talking to them. But again, you'll you'll get to figure it out. Is this somebody who wants data points, detail, that type of level? Or is this somebody who just wants to be told a broad, overview of the thing? And make sure you adapt your your communications to that person. Even you know, in in that particular quadrant, it's it's you almost do it on a person by person basis. And, you know, you need them on-site with you when you're when you're doing it.

John Byrne [00:23:07]:

I mean, you kind of touched on it a little bit that we can influence people, but oftentimes, a project manager is not going to be the most important person in the room, but they do need to be the most influential person in the room. And the only way they can do that is to communicate the right information to the right people at the right time.

Dante Healy [00:23:26]:

Yeah. And if it's as simple as that, why do you think some project managers struggle with communication? Do you believe it's more skills, or is it more mindset that is is getting in the way of being successful with their communications?

John Byrne [00:23:43]:

I think it's a a little bit of both. I I think there's certainly a skills element because I would count doing the matrix and all that as a skill, rather, just a mindset. But sometimes they just get people and the the the stakeholders in the wrong quadrant. Mhmm. They don't realize that, you know, somebody is is more involved or less involved than they should be. They don't have the skill set to recognize, now I I there's loads of different types of, personality testing things and that there's some people, you know, what was there's red, green, yellow, blue that I can't remember the name of it. There's all the these different things. I wouldn't necessarily learn all of them off.

John Byrne [00:24:22]:

I obviously haven't since I can't remember the the the name. But the the general gist of them all is pretty similar. It's that different people will will want different levels of information. Some are really technical. I want the detail, the the data points, the the the you know, all that. Others just need to know are we, you know, explain it to me in a more, you know, not a data driven way, in a more informative way. And you just need to, you know, you don't necessarily have to be able to recognize them straight away through through psychology assessments and all that. But you just you do need to kind of pick up on it that if somebody if if one of your important stakeholders is constantly asking you these types of questions, make a note of that so that the next time when you go to communicate with them, you have that same level of data that they asked for the previous time because that's obviously what they want.

John Byrne [00:25:13]:

And with with the skill set things, a lot of people just don't recognize that. They they don't even know what's a thing, so they just they keep going in unprepared to the meeting again and again and again because they haven't adapted the the level of of information to the person. And but then mindset also comes into it that sometimes they have the skill set to do it, but they've just decided this is how I'm doing it, and I'm not changing. You know? They're they're not They they've kind of almost decided they either know best or they don't know anything. As we kind of mentioned, you know, earlier, they're overconfident or they're underconfident, and they won't change. They won't recognize that they won't take on the the new data points and new information they're getting getting from their stakeholders during the communications. So I I think it's a combination of the two. I don't think any one is a a a it's kind of a a little mix and this you you know, it's a mix in every in every project manager has.

John Byrne [00:26:07]:

I mean, even us, we we don't, you know we're coming across here as if we've got it all perfect. We don't. We'll we'll, you know

Dante Healy [00:26:15]:

We'll model through ourselves, you know. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:26:18]:

We'll get through it ourselves. We'll run into difficulties and that. But at least we just kind of we'll adapt a little bit better maybe than, certainly I was gonna say certainly than than than new project managers. New project managers, they'll probably will adapt quicker because they don't think they know it all. It's seasoned veterans who are maybe

Dante Healy [00:26:38]:

Stuck in their ways. Yeah. No. I think it depends really because coming to your point, it depends on the struggle. Because if it's if it's if it's a seasoned person, it might be more likely a mindset thing because they don't have they're set in their ways that they know how to solve problems a certain way, and everything seems like a nail to their problem solving hammer toolkit or whatever. And not every technical problem or a situational problem needs the same approach to solve, and the same with, technical skills. Some of it you can you can acquire with experience. Some of it you can acquire with raw intellect to solve certain communication challenges.

Dante Healy [00:27:24]:

Not everything is about authority as well. I've seen newbie project managers who just who just try and and and consultants even in transformation. They try and power through the stakeholders, and then they're burning relationships early on, which is a huge mistake because you rub up people the wrong way that you're gonna be asking for asking to to do things for you, to help you in your project. And if if they're not willfully obstructing your progress, they might be passively rebelling against it because you've you've offended them, shall we say, by being too authoritative at the start when you don't really have authority.

John Byrne [00:28:13]:

That's it. I suppose that's one of the big things. Why why communication is so important to a project manager is it's rare I mean, it can happen where you have your project team and you are actually managing a team who are reporting to you and only to you, and that's it. But most of the time, especially in the likes of finance transformation projects and that you are borrowing people from other teams for your project, and you're not their manager. You're not the one who's going to be giving them a review where they'll get their bonus or the promotion or whatever. It's somebody else's. So that's who they're worried about, not you. So the only real way you have of getting them to do the work you want is through good communications and and making them and influencing them.

John Byrne [00:28:55]:

You can't have any authority over them. And if you try to exercise authority over them, they'll they can rebel because they just go to their boss, their real boss and say, not god. I want nothing to do with him. He's he's

Dante Healy [00:29:06]:

he's abusing me or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:29:09]:

Yeah. So you've I've had that. Yeah. You you asked

Dante Healy [00:29:12]:

Not me personally, but I've seen it with newbie project managers who've, who who've been excellent in finance, have been given a project to work on as a developmental role, and then they've gone in gung ho attacking their peers and colleagues for not delivering certain things or being too slow coming up and reconciling, say, some complex analytical differences on data, like technology or whatever. And it's as simple as, you know, well, why haven't why haven't you found the difference on your system? It's your system. Yeah. But you're giving me the data and it's wrong. I'm telling you, it doesn't reconcile with what we have. And, you know, you're an idiot blah blah blah. And then it it just escalates. And then suddenly, managers coming in, and and it becomes an argument that's flying up two different sets of finance function chains.

Dante Healy [00:30:06]:

And yeah. It just you think, well, there's eventually, it's all gonna have to be calmed down. You know, someone at the top is gonna have to be the grown up cool cool people down and then, yeah, it it gets back to normal, but there's a lot of time wasted in unnecessary conflict.

John Byrne [00:30:24]:

And that's, you know, again, knowing being able to influence and knowing that that you you you are not the boss. You are the project manager and not that project. Fine. But the people who are walking on it, chances are they're not your people. They're someone else's. And and that also goes the other way. I mean, I I was just talking about this earlier today with somebody about oftentimes with project managers that your boss might not be who you're reporting to all the time. You know, oftentimes, the project managements the project manager might sit under, you know, the IT director, IT might set you know, be over the more the PMO, the the program management office might have somebody who's and that's who you are actually reporting to from a employee to manager point of view.

John Byrne [00:31:09]:

But you're then you you've got your, project sponsor who win the project as the most important person. Yeah. And then you've got the whole rest of the steering committee who can all be coming at you from different things. And, you know, you need to be able to accept that that not only do you not have a team who are directly re reporting to you, you don't really have one person that you're reporting to either. You've got a lot of people that you have to report to and keep happy.

Dante Healy [00:31:40]:

Exactly. You don't wanna offend anyone if you can avoid it, but at the same time, you don't wanna be too weak. You you have to know who your primary stakeholder is, and that's your sponsor at the end of the day. So if you push back push back, but frame it in a way that, hey, I'm just doing my job. I've had people phone me out of hours like stupid o'clock in the evening because it's a I'm working on a global project. I've replied to an email saying, well, the approach you set you've you've proposed doesn't work for me. And it's something that they've spent weeks, maybe months trying to solve for. And I've just pushed back and said, well, because my sponsor doesn't like the solution, because it doesn't work for the they they have an opinion.

Dante Healy [00:32:31]:

And it's usually a trade off between something that's a quick fix and something that needs to be more sustainable for the long term. So something that is scalable and sustainable, but sometimes impractical because to actually get the long term solution, it's gonna it's gonna require more investment than the benefit, you know, and then there's there's trade offs. So you have to do it in a way that's not offensive. You have to just say, look, I I hear what you're saying, but our priority is this. Let's have a discussion to align, and conflict doesn't have to be confrontational necessarily. But you can still stand your ground and be firm, but without being too too aggressive. Because I think in the right or in the right organizations, the culture should be about trying to find a better way to actually solve problems that meets multiple, shall we say, expectations. Even if realistically you can't make everyone completely happy.

Dante Healy [00:33:38]:

You can find a solution that's acceptable to everyone.

John Byrne [00:33:41]:

I suppose then that's kind of introducing them. We we

Dante Healy [00:33:45]:

Problem solving rather than

John Byrne [00:33:47]:

was gonna say our project management our project management communications, we kinda said at the beginning, there's communications that everybody faces, but also then, you know, a bit of leadership to your leadership style and that because you you are a leader, but you can only influence. You don't really have that much authority over other people. And now kind of change management is is is is is coming into it as well, like conflict resolutions and stuff. Yeah. That makes sense as well because, you know, projects are, by their nature, changes. You know? You know, you're always doing a project to just continue on as is. You're doing a project because you want to make a change. You're introducing a new system, a new process, a new whatever.

John Byrne [00:34:25]:

You're you're making a change. So change management does come into communications for project managers in a big way, actually. Yeah. It's almost

Dante Healy [00:34:35]:

A lot of, a lot of the presentation skills and influencing comes from your skill set and being able to solve problems. So clear thinking comes into it very much so. And then that comes back to the skill set rather than the, shall we say, the the touchy feely elements, the the emotional resilience, the adaptability. Again, emotional intelligence, empathy. I think problem solving is a would you class problem solving as a aptitude challenge or a mindset challenge? Because depending on who I talk to, it could be either. A lot of people say that actually problem solving is all about mindset.

John Byrne [00:35:21]:

I say it's a lot to do with mindset. Yeah. There are certain techniques. There are certain things to be done with problem solving. But, ultimately, I think it is mindset in that you need to be open to do it. If you're not open, it doesn't matter how great your teacher was, how great your techniques, the books you've studied, whatever are. If you're not open to doing it, it's gone you're gonna struggle. Mhmm.

John Byrne [00:35:44]:

And and you can even if you are open to it, you need to be able to communicate well because chances are somebody important on our team or the the stakeholders are not open to it, and you need to bring them around. Yeah. I will accept that. You do know what you're doing, and you you will be able to solve this problem, but you just may not do it the way they think it should be done.

Dante Healy [00:36:07]:

Absolutely, John. So thank you. I guess, is there anything else you'd like to cover in terms of I think we've covered most of the points in terms of how self awareness and also situational awareness is critical in communications for project managers. And then within that, there's obviously mapping stakeholders, and then being able to adapt and recognize whether your communication gap is something to do with either a mindset issue or an aptitude or a skill set issue. Anything else we need to cover?

John Byrne [00:36:48]:

Oh, I think we we've kind of I'm looking at our points that we we obviously put together before and things. And I think we've covered them all. We've just kind of skipped around a little bit that we've we've changed the order that we had originally planned, but I think we've covered them all. So it's the the big one as well, though, for project managers is is is just we we have core data and and just to reemphasize it a bit is understand your place in the pecking order. Mhmm. That, you are in an awkward situation, especially if you're an external contractor, which a lot of project managers can be. You know, some companies are big enough that they have a whole load of internal project managers because there's always a project going on. But often as well, they'll bring ones in especially.

John Byrne [00:37:28]:

So with the and whichever one you are, if you're in the company or if you're an external contractor, you know, it might actually be even more difficult if you're in the company. An external contractor kinda knows that they don't have authority. They're just trying to influence as much as they can. Somebody who's brought who's internal in the company, especially if they're not a project manager in the company. And you you kinda gave an example of it earlier that, you know, a manager or a business lead who's then moved over and given a project to do thinks that they can, you know, tell their project team what to do the same way they would tell their business team what to do, and that can become a rage or shock to the system. So if anybody who's listening is in that situation that you are a manager of some sort of a team and you're going to go into project management to do a project, if it's not your team who's going to be doing the project, if it's if you're going to be taking a new, you know, a selection of people from other teams and that, to just be aware and and take that into consideration that your communication style needs to adapt to that. You can no longer just tell people what to do. You have to try and influence them to make them feel they want to do it Because they've to then go and do their day job, and their day job is reporting to somebody who's not new.

John Byrne [00:38:41]:

So that's who, obviously, they'll be more prioritizing.

Dante Healy [00:38:44]:

Exactly. Thanks, John. And that was a great discussion. And yeah. So I guess to wrap up. So understanding really how to be effective in your communication is to shift your focus from how do I sound to what does the room need and what do my stakeholders need? Introducing really a little bit of stepping back and thinking, well, observing what's going on when you're interacting, and then being able to react to it, and adapting to the situation at hand because there's not a one size fits all. And yeah. I think, anything else as well.

John Byrne [00:39:27]:

I think, yeah, I think that that's for for this for this episode. I think we've forward everything and maybe then we'll you must do a follow-up episode where, you know, we'll we'll we'll give ideas as to how to achieve all that. We've we've said what to achieve or, maybe we go a bit more in-depth as to how to get that influence and situation awareness.

Dante Healy [00:39:49]:

Yeah. Thanks, John. I look forward to it. And, yeah, great episode as always. Thank you very much, John.

John Byrne [00:39:55]:

Have a good day.