Dante Healy [00:00:00]:

Go to this can be Hello, everyone. Welcome to Business Breaks, Your Project Management Edge, the podcast where we dive deep into strategies and tactics that drive successful project management in today's dynamic business landscape. I'm your host, Dante Healy, and joining me today is my co host and fellow expert, John Byrne. So change is an inevitable part of any organization, And importantly, understanding how to navigate it effectively can make all the difference between success and failure, both for your business and for you professionally. So in the first of this two part episode, we'll explore, firstly, the psychology of change, where we'll cover the emotional and cognitive factors that influence how individuals and teams respond to change, and how you can harness this to facilitate smoother transitions. And for the second part, we'll tackle managing or sorry, measuring change success. Change isn't just about implementation, it's about assessing the impact, and ensuring that your efforts lead to tangible results. We'll share practical metrics and tools that can help evaluate the effectiveness of your change initiatives.

Dante Healy [00:01:22]:

So, John, let's start with the psychology of change. And first off, I think we should really cover why do people resist change? I mean, seems obvious. It's it's it's this natural visceral reaction to the unknown. But how in your experience, what have you seen when people hear this change announcement or even a new system being deployed? What's the usual response you see?

John Byrne [00:01:53]:

Most change you know, there there will be lots of, specifics that will all be different, but you can almost put most of the change that I come across, that I've seen, falls into one of two buckets. One is that there wasn't enough communication. The people seem to think just communicating the fact that they're going to change was enough. And people didn't know, well, why are we going to change? Why are we changing to? Why is that better than what we're doing? Why is it necessary? And the other big bucket is, that people and it's actually probably the biggest, I wouldn't say the biggest as far as numbers of people opposing change, but it's it's one of the biggest drivers for if this is the bucket that people fall into, they're almost even more against the change than if they fall into the other bucket. And that bucket is that they weren't listened to. Somebody did. You know? You may have communicated why you're doing the change and all that. And people gave their feedback, gave their input, and then from what they can see, they were just ignored that none of it made it true.

John Byrne [00:02:57]:

There might be valid reasons why none of it made it true. They may have been listened to, but the communication back to them wasn't there. And and they they resent the change because they feel they were completely ignored through it. And between those two buckets, I think all the other little you know, the the specifics fall into one of those two big buckets, I think. And and then I suppose you do have people who just say change versus, like, I hate change. No matter what change it was, they pay it, but they're they're rare. Time for you.

Dante Healy [00:03:28]:

Yeah. But then on the flip side, there's also organizations who lay a change on top of change on top of change. There's no time for rest or rest and, you know, recharging. So you end up with people who are always always in the middle of every seemingly every change initiative, and they end up with change fatigue.

John Byrne [00:03:49]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I I think there those type of, businesses will almost invariably there'll be no communication because they're almost making a rip as they go along when when there's just change after change after change after change, and you can't take And then some of the changes are changing what they just changed. You know,

Dante Healy [00:04:06]:

about Exactly.

John Byrne [00:04:07]:

They're just running around like headless chickens. They're the people in charge that they they haven't got a strategy.

Dante Healy [00:04:13]:

And then when costs costs of change escalate, they're the ones who get the the blame for it because sometimes well, you're there to manage costs. Yeah. But you you keep telling me that this has to go through, so I let it go through as an exception. And then there's too much of that as well. And so I think there's there's an element of when when you have too much pushing, you people tend to just ground themselves and push back and, you know, in order to avoid any potential negative repercussions. Because if you don't understand what's going on or you don't see where the end game is, and worse off, you don't know what the implications are for yourself, then it's hard to get buy in.

John Byrne [00:05:00]:

And that that that the only way to fix that is through clear, transparent communication. And and that's lacking it fixed on. But, again, I suppose, you know, part of that would be as we kinda delve into the specifics a bit more is to have a strategy. You know, if there is going to be a lot of change coming up to have clearly communicated that upfront that people know they're not getting a break, but they also know why there's going to be a load of change coming up that why are we not getting a break? Well, that has been communicated. They know it won't make it easier for them in a physical it'll still be draining for them and that, but maybe they you know, if they can see the end game, if they can see why, they can get a little bit psyched up for, to last the distance. Whereas you so when you when you do something, then you you can see the end line in sight and you think, okay. We finished it now with Iraq, and then out of nowhere, another project, another change initiative has come up, and you and you just weren't expecting it. That just completely, you know, wins you and and and takes all the the motivation away from it.

Dante Healy [00:06:07]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's it's definitely more compelling if the why is something like I don't know. I'm trying to think of my own experiences, Brexit. So we need we needed to restructure the business in order to continue doing business from UK in Europe. So there had to be a certain reorganization when you're in banking and financial services. So licenses You couldn't operate as a UK bank with branches in Europe anymore, so we needed to set up legal entities. So that was a legally or regulatory driven change, And that was a big why because 60% of the business was in Europe, Mainland Europe, or EU, should I say.

Dante Healy [00:06:56]:

And then there's other things like massive cultural change. And you see that in big organizations that have been able to operate as they were for a long time, but then suddenly the industry gets disrupted, and then they have to suddenly pivot. And what you've got are legacy executives who are used to having a very relatively calm calm role in terms of, you know, you deliver your 10% pro performance improvement year on year, and that's it. And then suddenly, you're having to do something that isn't incremental, but it's a massive step change. Like, when you get to a complete transformation, it means invariably, at some point, you've taken your eye off the ball for a prolonged period of time so that when the competition haven't just caught up but taken over, you find yourself on the back foot. And then suddenly, someone's coming in and telling your business, usually external consultants, that you have to switch from thinking like an incumbent to a start up, and that becomes a big cultural change as well. And but those are two examples where the why was clear. You know, it was kind of an existential crisis.

Dante Healy [00:08:16]:

But then if someone's just layering a change and they're saying, well, we need to be efficient. I think for organizations that are used to continuous change and continuously reinventing, it's it's easier because change is accepted. And you have teams that are able to just understand that roles will change. But as long as they feel like whatever happens after the change that they will be protected, then there's general buying. And a lot of the time, when you say we're gonna change and we don't know what their end state will look like and there's no guarantees, then it becomes harder for people. Unless their exit strategy is, I'll exploit every opportunity I have to use the change to get a better job elsewhere. That's a strategy.

John Byrne [00:09:09]:

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You know, unfortunately, it does be especially nowadays, a lot of the change tends to be cost up changes, which which means that are being you know, everybody has fear in front of our jobs, not just having to focus on the on the change. Even when that is not necessarily what the point of the change is, but Yeah. Can be. And, again, you know, the communications we kind of mentioned are a big thing, but trust that the communications are honest is another big thing. And people don't trust the the communicators.

John Byrne [00:09:45]:

They don't trust the management, the leadership team fully. Then even when the leadership team is being totally honest and transparent with them with the communications, people just don't believe them. That can cause, you know, people to turn against the change as well.

Dante Healy [00:10:01]:

And that can be both an issue with not just the leader, but the perception of the person being communicated to. They don't feel that they're heard. And there may be no reason not to trust the leader, but they just feel like they've seen it somewhere else or someone's told them that this is what happens invariably. And so they should be paranoid. I think paranoia isn't isn't necessarily a bad thing. The other end of the spectrum is complete complete complacency. Right? That you think, oh, it's all gonna be it's all gonna be hunky dory. I'm Pollyanna, and, you know, everything's perfect even when it's tough.

Dante Healy [00:10:44]:

And things will work out somehow. That's not a strategy. Right? But, yeah, I think the majority of the time people, they don't wanna they don't really welcome change because change is hard. It means a lot more effort than what they used to. And if that effort isn't gonna lead to some benefit personally, then on a transactional basis, people will generally either go through the motions and not really put any effort in, or they will outright resist it depending on how it's framed. And then, yeah, like I say, throughout that reorganization, there's gonna be winners and losers. And you don't know because things things are very fluid. Even transformation plans are based on high level strategic assumptions.

Dante Healy [00:11:38]:

As things play out, you'll find out who's who's who who's helping the transformation, who isn't. And even then, if the if the compensation and rewards and performance isn't assessed fairly, then you you even the rewards won't be attributable to those who necessarily contributed to the success. Eve and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're punished, but it might mean that for the effort they put in and their contribution to the transformation, they may not get the recognition or reward for it. A lot of the work is usually, shall we say, unglamorous. It's very detail oriented. And to actually get people to actually like, for example, using a new system correctly, it requires a lot of things like training, creating the right documentation. These are administrative tasks, but they're critical when you go for a change. But they're not always necessarily appreciated.

John Byrne [00:12:47]:

Yeah. I think they they can be there. And as you said, if if the people who are being relied on to do this, they're if they're feeling they are being unappreciated, well, then that's going to go against change, you know, that they'll they'll push back a little bit. You know, being pushing back against change does not necessarily mean that you're trying to disrupt the change. It just means that you're not fully committed to implementing it yourself. Like, yeah, you'll go a long word, but you'll just do the bare minimum necessary. And when for change to really be successful in a in a company or an organization of any kind, it kind of needs enough of those people to not just be going along with it, but to be actually actively trying to help it because Yeah. You know, change is is something that you you can make all the plans for that you want, but something will not change the way you're expecting it to change.

John Byrne [00:13:43]:

Something will go, you know, wrong compared to what you are planning. So you want people to be not not necessarily to stop that from happening, but to be able to to be involved enough and to care enough about it that when it happens. You know, either they can they can stop it if it's a bad thing, or they can take advantage of it if it could lead to an even better outcome.

Dante Healy [00:14:08]:

Yeah. And and the recognition has to be fair. Yeah. As you mentioned, it's getting critical mass, and the right people, not necessarily the people who are there as passengers, but the people who drive it, should be acknowledged for their drive and also recognize that the change wouldn't have happened without their contribution. It needs a lot of people to contribute, not just to change, but also to embed the change so it becomes habitual, and it is a real change, not just a temporary blip. And then, you know, once people take their eye off the ball, it it reverts back to type because that happens. You know, you may find, like, a few months after hypercare has stopped, then people just go back to doing the same thing they always did.

John Byrne [00:14:56]:

That's it. And especially when it's, you know, like, if it's our expertise is very much in systems implementations, but, you know, transformations and that's what it's it's technically systems driven. And and that can be one of the the worst things that you you see. I think you get this great new system in that can do so much more than they used to do, and then what ends up happening at the end of it all is they're just doing exactly what they used to do. But now they're doing it in system a instead of system b, which, you know, in the old system. And that's it. But nothing has improved, just using a a fancier new system. And and

Dante Healy [00:15:27]:

To do the same old manual across in Excel schedules because that's what they're used to.

John Byrne [00:15:33]:

Yeah. Exactly. And and that can be one of the the toughest things because that that's you know, they they were all for it and that habit just got in. This is the way we've always done things, and and they've just reverted back to the old habit. You know, I I I know they they have things, how long it takes a new habit to form is x amount of time and that. But I I think that underestimates things because people will revert back to the old habits really, really quickly once, once the excitement of the new system and the new thing has has, ended. They they find the new way of doing things is a bit more difficult. It it it's probably not more difficult, but it's just that they have to remember to do a few things differently, and they just class the whole thing as more difficult and revert back.

John Byrne [00:16:20]:

Whereas if it stuck with it and let everything bed down, it would turn out to be the new way. It would have been a lot easier in the long run, but in the short term, it it it can be more difficult to make that change, and and they just revert back out of habit and out of, you know, they they have their own biases as well sometimes that, oh, system a, I hate that. I I've used system a or something similar to it in the past. I hate it. I don't want to work in system a. And that's it. Things are shut down then. And, you know, these are psychological reasons that people object to change.

John Byrne [00:16:59]:

Yeah. You know?

Dante Healy [00:17:00]:

It's it comes back to motivation again Yeah. Ultimately. Because if people if the environment doesn't make it very difficult to revert back to type, then people will naturally go back to what they feel is comfortable. Because, yeah, someone said to me on a pre on an interview a while back, people are naturally lazy. And so whatever is the path of least resistance for them is what they're going to assume. So if you make it that much more painful to go back to type, the environment has to be set up in a way like your system has to be set up to reject manual work rules. For example, coming back to my example, and prefer to use the system to capture the data correctly so that it's not outside of the system. So if you want to, I don't know, for whatever reason, trace back an entry, you can do it because everything's done properly.

Dante Healy [00:18:04]:

You're using a system as it's designed, and you reap the benefits of those or whatever it is you're looking to get from your from your new system rather than having someone just keep everything on yeah. I go back to Excel because that's what accountants are used to, and that's usually the bugbear we try to eliminate most of the time. But for some reason, you know, it's even harder to get away from Excel spreadsheets once you've got into the habit. Even now, I can't help but open up Excel more often than not when I'm turning on my laptop. It's just habit.

John Byrne [00:18:41]:

Yeah. It it can be difficult as well that, you know, with a new system, what system itself is not really what should be new. It's the processes that it's going to enable will be new. And when you're coming off something like Excel, you're coming off a manual system to a a more automated system that will make things a lot easier for everybody involved in the long run. Mhmm. What I found in the past is a lot of the people who use it object because it's not as flexible, and they are convinced the old system is more flexible. And, you know, one one example, we we were a long time ago when I kind of started off doing project management, we're putting in an ERP system for for a company, and they didn't want to use, a lot there was pushback for from a lot of the, the team leads and that they didn't want to use it for the time management, for billing and stuff like that because they said the the system they were using was much more flexible. But the irony was the system they were using previously that we we were using previously was not more flexible.

John Byrne [00:19:50]:

It was two different systems, and there was a manual transfer from one system to the other. That's where the flexibility came in. They were able to put notes in the old system. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do the other. And then it was up to one of us in accounts the management accountants and that when we were manually transferring over to to read those instructions and to do what they said. That's where the flexibility came from.

John Byrne [00:20:11]:

The system itself had no flexibility in it whatsoever. And if we'd have just designed a an integration between the two systems, there'd have been no flexibility whatsoever. The new system we did had less flexibility because it was removing a manual thing where it actually overall had more flexibility than the the previous two systems we were using. You could actually these are you know, put instructions in and do it, but it wasn't quite the same as just giving a you know, write a load of text instruction to an accountant and tell them when what how to build this, that, or the other and and that. But that required then it wasn't the system as such. It was it was the culture of the company that that needed the change that, no. You you can't just you know, if if you've billed for this amount if you've done this amount of hours, then we need to start billing for that amount of hours in the month that you've done it. You can't be just putting notes in, only billed for half of them and then because then it was we were relying on them to remember that we had to build the other half the following month because it just assumed the old the old system just assumed when you build everything and that was it.

John Byrne [00:21:16]:

It didn't know because the two the two parts didn't talk to each other.

Dante Healy [00:21:20]:

And that's bad because that's real revenue leakage.

John Byrne [00:21:23]:

Yeah. Exactly. And and

Dante Healy [00:21:24]:

that was based off of a bad process, which was probably put in to plug a gap and make sure things were happening. But then you're not you're not really looking at the system and saying, is the system is the system really complete from a perspective of, do we have something that requires little to no human intervention where it shouldn't be necessary? If it's rules based, it should be automated.

John Byrne [00:21:49]:

And in theory, it was supposed to be rules based. I mean, yes, we were having to manually transfer from one system to another. But, technically speaking, we should have been just transferring from one system to another. We should not have been reading those instructions. But over the years, it had as the company had grown

Dante Healy [00:22:06]:

Became the status quo. That's the problem. And then that's the danger. Right? When people accept things as given, then they don't challenge. And things that are really bad practice are just accepted as common practice. Yeah. And that's when you're in the problems.

John Byrne [00:22:24]:

That's it. And trying to change that becomes a huge thing because now suddenly you've got you've got a lot of pushback because now this is how we've always done it, and we're set up to do it this way. We're we're not set up to do it another way. Like, in that example, they were telling us, well, the customers wouldn't be happy because they wouldn't be able to give them the flexibility of the thing. And you kinda think, well, you know, the the the customer signed the contract saying they would pay for the walk, you know, a month in arrears as it was done. And and, you know, I I I would question why we were doing it certain ways. You know? We I I we'd be out

Dante Healy [00:22:55]:

helping their cash flow, of course.

John Byrne [00:22:57]:

It it was helping and and in part as well, I think it was helping their their entire it was helping certain people who were in those client companies subvert their management controls that, you know, they they had a limit of how much they could approve an invoice for each month, So they were keeping it below that limit. Mhmm. But, you know, that that's not really for us to be helping them do. You know, that that's if that They

Dante Healy [00:23:21]:

should be fixing their broken process, not you plugging a gap by helping them to circumvent it. And that's that's always a problem, but also an advantage if if a supplier or a vendor approaches a customer. And and by the custom, I mean, a manager or an employee or a decision maker within another organization, and they they come to the vendor and says, I've got a problem. I can't do this because, you know, I can't charge you the full amount now. And then they say, don't worry. We'll make your problem go away. We'll deal with it. And then you're doing it on a personal basis, and that builds trust, but with not with the business, but with that person in the business.

Dante Healy [00:24:04]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:24:04]:

And then then some you know, something comes up later on and you're trying to change that, and you're you're automating that process and you're planning to think, well, this is fine because we're just, you know, removing a manual layer here, but then you find out all these little deals that have kind of gone on that was happening within that manual layer, and you're

Dante Healy [00:24:22]:

Under the table. Yeah. I

John Byrne [00:24:24]:

mean, there there was nothing nothing illegal or anything going on. It was surely, you know

Dante Healy [00:24:29]:

The problem is it it kind of is. A lot of these off the books deals are actually counter to company policy. But then that's the ultimate trust. Right? I trust you not to get me fired with my company by doing this.

John Byrne [00:24:44]:

That's it. And and I'm trying to change that can be because, again, it does lead to problems outside of the company.

Dante Healy [00:24:53]:

Oh, yeah.

John Byrne [00:24:53]:

You'd never thought of when you were making your your

Dante Healy [00:24:56]:

They've got you on the hook, basically. So if you can't keep building businesses, then they can make your life awkward. And then, you know, it comes back to, bringing back memories when I was a when I was doing special investigations, you know, as a kind of a fraud on fraud watch in the internal control. Usually, a lot of these things happen because finance functions were too inflexible. And so what would happen is the buyer or usually, it was the requisitioning manager in operations would do a back backroom deal with their, with their suppliers, usually their preferred suppliers. And then that comes into a lot of, or shall we say, red flags that have to be investigated.

John Byrne [00:25:47]:

Well, now in the example I was giving, it it wasn't kind of a backroom deal. It was kind of, you know, somebody just picked up the phone call and said, look. Instead of invoicing me all this month, ten year, give me half this month, half next month. And your man says, oh, yeah. No problem. Just write in the note on the old system that just invoice half this month and invoice the other half next month. And then that's what was done when it was transferred over from the time management system to the the the things that and then when we were putting in an ERP, we were removing that manual thing. Now as it turned out, they could still do that.

John Byrne [00:26:17]:

They they could have just told the system. They have 50% this month, 50% next month. The system would have, remembered it and all that. But it it was still just not as handy to do, and it would have required a bit more authority for you know, to to to go up the line that it would have been known it was happening. And so so as I said, in this particular example, there was nothing illegal about it. It was kind of in part, sometimes it would have been to help for cash flow of the client company. Sometimes it was just for the, the the the manager who was, in charge to be able to sign off on the invoice because it'd be within their limits and things like that that, you know

Dante Healy [00:27:00]:

Oh, yeah. Purchase order splitting usually. Basically. Even that is circumventing a control. It's yeah. Authority limits.

John Byrne [00:27:10]:

But then trying to get that change in where they were able to come back with, you know, that this was a it wasn't just that this is the way they always done it. It was now what the customer expected. So we were making a change, and that was the you know, the these are very specific examples, I suppose. But I can show you how sometimes can be a lot of pushback on a change, and it it goes beyond just the person doing the pushback now. It's

Dante Healy [00:27:34]:

It's not it's psychology, but on a different for a different reason. Yeah. Because there's something to hide that if the change uncovers it, then there or if it removes a certain level of freedom.

John Byrne [00:27:46]:

It removes the freedom. I think in this particular example, they weren't hiding anything as social. Maybe on the client end, they were, you know, hiding the fact that they were circumventing the the controls. I don't know. On our end, there was nothing hiding about it. There was no fraud or anything like that. It was just it removed it removed an air of control they felt they had. But in reality, the control wasn't there.

John Byrne [00:28:10]:

It was a it was just because there was a manual instruction. We'd have chosen to ignore that manual instruction. You you know? They had no control. They were relying on us noticing the note and understanding what the note was. And it would always be in the middle of month end, so we weren't going back to them to confirm things. We were just kind of interpreting as whatever we thought it was and doing it.

Dante Healy [00:28:31]:

Yeah. It's too much really because that that in and of itself is a great is a classic example of, broken process where people circumvent really what should be a policy. If people don't follow follow the rules and create their own ad hoc agreements, then that that that leads to problems in other areas of the business who have to accommodate that. And once it's imposed, really what you need is one operating model, one agreement. And if anyone deviates, they should pay for the additional cost of that deviation.

John Byrne [00:29:07]:

And that's, you know I I I know it's a a specific example, but it's it's a very difficult one to actually deal

Dante Healy [00:29:17]:

with. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:29:18]:

And, you know, how do you you know, you you can't

Dante Healy [00:29:21]:

You need strong leadership in your organization. If someone in finance like the CFO says, I don't I any exception has to be has to be by by express approval just so that people understand that, hey. If you if, say, a salesman agrees something like extended credit terms or, as you say, billings, which is basically what it is. It's customer financing. Right? Then that should be acknowledged, that should be documented, and that should be exposed. And any any impact because it's it's an exception, maybe for good reason. Well, good intention. Don't know if, I guess, good reason is is down to your own subjective assessment.

Dante Healy [00:30:08]:

But good intentions because you wanna you wanna win business, so you you may be taken led to accept more than you should.

John Byrne [00:30:17]:

Yeah. And and in this case, I will say say this, you know, in advance, it wasn't to win more business. They already had the business. They were just kind of they were doing a favor to facilitate a client who was already a client. It wasn't agreed in the original. It it was something that just kinda

Dante Healy [00:30:32]:

came in. Original contracts. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:30:34]:

Yeah. So it wasn't done in a you know, it wasn't a bribe or anything like that. It was just some, you know, some days.

Dante Healy [00:30:39]:

Just a favor.

John Byrne [00:30:40]:

Yeah. Basically.

Dante Healy [00:30:41]:

Yeah. Maybe to win future business. And then

John Byrne [00:30:44]:

Well, build

Dante Healy [00:30:45]:

real trust, closer relationship. Yeah. Just just that

John Byrne [00:30:48]:

they'd be you know, I suppose they were just doing it to be helpful. But, you know, it was still to to change that was an incredibly tough thing to to get through. And what we ended up doing was we we couldn't force through them to change and follow, you know, new processes. What we ended up doing in that particular situation was, they they wrote our aspects to the business, and we moved them onto the the full ERP with the time tracking and all that. Mhmm. Just left the the crowds, the the the section of the organization that would have had similar you know, would have would have been using the flexibility of that manual change for various things, not just that example. We we left them there for a little while with the intention that they're going to be having to walk their backsides off every month down trying to to get all this stuff done. The rest of the business that we've moved over on it will be month end will be nothing to them.

John Byrne [00:31:44]:

They're just clicking a button. Yeah. Go ahead. And everything is automatically processed. And they they eventually come to us and ask us, yeah. Okay. Move us on to the new system because we're having to do sixteen hour shifts every month end to try and get all our stuff done, and they're hopping off early, finishing you know, they're already the same till the end of the day. They're they're finishing early because theirs is all done.

John Byrne [00:32:05]:

Why is that? And, you know, that so that was how we ended up check managing that particular change in in in the strategy that we just said. Right? We've we've moved the others onto it, and eventually, they'll come back. And we've clamped down within finance as well. We said, we're not walking late to facilitate your manual instructions. So you're back by cutting them down and making them much clearer because this is how long we have to process it all, and that's it. We're not going further than that. Eventually, they did come back to us and say, right, then let's let's go over. We, we've stopped doing those types of favors for people because there was no benefit to us in doing it.

John Byrne [00:32:46]:

You know? Like, it didn't matter to us. We were getting paid regardless. So, you know, just in the client's thing that maybe the the approval had to move up a level or something like that.

Dante Healy [00:32:57]:

Makes sense. Oh, thank you, John. That was interesting. I think we deviated slightly from the psychology, but it's good. It's good. I mean, it it it provides a real tangible example of a of a change that needed to happen. But, yeah, for for more technical reasons than Yeah.

John Byrne [00:33:15]:

Although the the psychology of it was for the change point of view, they were, you know, they they were doing they thought they were doing good. Mhmm. It wasn't that they were resisting change because they thought it would upset them. They were resisting change because they thought it would be

Dante Healy [00:33:31]:

stopping Beneficial.

John Byrne [00:33:32]:

Help others. You know, people outside want them that they will help.

Dante Healy [00:33:37]:

And then it comes back to business partnering and this, I guess, the psychology behind that is when is it helpful to actually, you know, concede and go above and beyond versus actually maybe doing a little bit of damage to your own organization further down the line. And and by damage, maybe it was an acceptable risk. It was for the customer. So but it introduced I guess, if you're making if you're making concessions that you're not personally responsible, I feel very uncomfortable if you don't communicate to the organization impacted. And then suddenly, it's like, you know, if things go wrong with the customer or if revenue is missed, you're putting the burden on another department. Does that make sense?

John Byrne [00:34:28]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was a, you know, change that needed to to happen. But, you know, again, the the the psychology of it was that

Dante Healy [00:34:36]:

Should have been communicated to all stakeholders who were impacted.

John Byrne [00:34:40]:

Well, it was. That's that's what I mean. Everybody knew that that's what they they weren't doing it slightly or hidden around like that. I mean, for a start, everybody in finance knew what was happening because we were reading the instruction on doing it. And we were doing it because we were told, yeah, that's fine. Just when they put notes like that in, follow them that they're they're it's grand. From our side of things, no damage was being done. And when we were making the change to automate it, no damage was being done from our side.

John Byrne [00:35:06]:

Right. That they were going to be damaging the ability of their clients to, you you know, who who were able to okay. It wasn't happening all the time, but I suppose, you know, between the the the the the yeah. It's it's I just kind of from the psychological point of view, it was how they seen the change was it was taking away their ability to be helpful to somebody, and and they weren't gaining from being helpful. They just liked the idea that they were able to help Yeah. And we were taking that away from them. So that's where the resistance came from to the change, and that's a very tough one to you know? Resistance to change is not always selfish. Sometimes it is actually that, no.

John Byrne [00:35:51]:

We're thinking of somebody else here who change is going to impact a great deal more than you realize, and we're fighting it on their behalf almost. And that's a much more difficult one almost to do because you're kind of looking and saying, well, we still have to enforce this change, but, we've Whose

Dante Healy [00:36:07]:

business do you prioritize, though? That's the problem. Are you working for the customer, or are you working for your own business? I guess that's that's always a question. Right? The customer is always right until until there's a conflict and a misalignment, and then you have to ask question, does is it still worthwhile to do business?

John Byrne [00:36:30]:

That's it. But but there's the the change that, you know, that that that psychology is there that within the same company, you can have people coming out from different angles. Some will psychologically thinking our company is the most important. Others will be psychologically thinking.

Dante Healy [00:36:47]:

Customers customers job one. Happy customer. Good business.

John Byrne [00:36:52]:

Exactly. And and the fact that, you know, we're also we're not we're not damaging ourselves by helping them. Why should we change that? Why shouldn't we be able to help them if it's not causing us any damage?

Dante Healy [00:37:04]:

And that's a fair point. I think the problem is if it's a one off, you probably won't notice it. If it becomes procedural, then over time, it's gonna

John Byrne [00:37:14]:

Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:37:14]:

Optimize your business.

John Byrne [00:37:15]:

That's the yeah. That's the thing. But but it's just from the point of view of, you know, ignoring the, the business aspects of it. It's the the the psychology of it that it's very difficult to when somebody is doing something not for their own benefit but to help somebody else.

Dante Healy [00:37:33]:

I think it sounds like yeah. Sorry.

John Byrne [00:37:35]:

It's very difficult to argue against that.

Dante Healy [00:37:38]:

Yeah. Is psychology backed by commercial acumen because business is business, ultimately. You know, you have to you have to make money, ultimately. But and and you can't have a business without customers, but customers yeah.

John Byrne [00:37:54]:

From the change management point of view, that, you know, that that how do you argue against somebody like that without just saying, oh, business is business, and that's it. That's not going to win them over. That's not going to get them on board, and that's not going to get the change implemented.

Dante Healy [00:38:11]:

Yeah. But I guess maybe there's a third way where you say, yeah, we can make the customer happy, but maybe it's thinking outside of the box to solve it.

John Byrne [00:38:20]:

Well, that would be it. But that that would kind of, you know, I suppose lead into the you know, how where would that person fit in in you know, when when you look at change managements, they have lots of techniques that they, you know, try this, try that, try the other. They fit outside of most of those techniques.

Dante Healy [00:38:43]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:38:43]:

Those techniques are kind of always for getting you on board because you're against change out of habit or out of, self preservation or that.

Dante Healy [00:38:52]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:38:52]:

Very rarely that any of those changes are done from from that point of view. And yet they it does happen. And I'm sure there are other examples where people have resisted change, not out of selfish reasons or out of selfless reasons.

Dante Healy [00:39:06]:

Yeah. And it's not about fitting people into personality types. Oh, we've got the resistors. We've got the innovators. We've got the adopters. We've got the late adopters. And, you know, it's not about putting people into boxes. It's about understanding context.

John Byrne [00:39:22]:

Although, I suppose with that one, the pragmatists, so that's another thing. And and those people were probably pragmatists, so they were thinking, well, hang on. Causing us no harm, helping our clients be practical. Let's keep helping the clients. Until it has become harmful to us, then we'll reevaluate it. And we were implementing a system where it was, no, we're changing that because

Dante Healy [00:39:41]:

In the early days, it was practical. It was the right thing to do. Absolutely. But then when it became habitual and stopped being commercially viable.

John Byrne [00:39:51]:

Yeah. It's still commercially viable in all of our work. It was just very, inefficient.

Dante Healy [00:39:56]:

It's inefficient.

John Byrne [00:39:57]:

And that was purely it moving over was an efficiency thing. And you can understand then what people are saying, yeah, but just for for that. But managing that, trying to get those people on board is very difficult. As I said, when we did it, we ended up just letting them have their way until they realized how much extra work they're putting on themselves. And then they realized, okay. Yeah. This is not working because we pushed back a lot of it onto them that we weren't doing it anymore for them. The the work was that we're also they were making them changes, not realizing how much work we were having to do as a result.

John Byrne [00:40:29]:

Change was made. And when they wouldn't do it, we said fine, but we won't have the time to do it anymore. We're doing other things. So you're gonna have to do the work and spend time and and do it. And they changed then after a while of dealing with that. But that type of change management probably wouldn't work for most places. Yeah. You want people being willing to change, not being forced to change.

Dante Healy [00:40:51]:

Yeah. They need to be bought in. Absolutely. Brilliant. And and coming back to those personality types, do you find, have you ever used personality types with apart from identifying the obvious, is pretty much you don't need to be a psychologist to identify who's against the change, who's kind of cautious about the change and willing to try it and versus people who are, like, really passionate about change because they see opportunity.

John Byrne [00:41:22]:

I I I I don't necessarily go in for the personality types. You know? Obviously, I know they exist, and I've I've, you know, I've read a couple of books about them, but I don't read those books to learn how to put somebody. I couldn't tell you I I can't remember what it is. You know? And these people have this yellow, blue, green, and red personality. Yeah. Yeah. Tell you what I am. I couldn't tell you what you are.

John Byrne [00:41:43]:

Right? I know they exist. But the only reason I I I've read of them and that is just because it makes you fully aware that different strokes for different folks, like I think, that not not everybody will not be everybody won't fit into those categories nice and neat. But knowing those categories exist means that you're a little bit more aware that, yeah, everybody is different. Yeah. And you need to pay a little bit more attention to what people are saying and with our body language and how what questions they're asking and stuff like that and and kind of adjust your message to suit the person. Yeah. Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:42:16]:

And it is the I think it's called the color personality model, and it's based on Jungian psychology, apparently.

John Byrne [00:42:25]:

And there's a few others as well. I know there's one, with

Dante Healy [00:42:29]:

Like MBTI, you know, the Myers Briggs, that sort

John Byrne [00:42:32]:

of thing. Yeah. Hart Briggs. I wouldn't think of that. Things like that. And, again, they're they're good to be aware of. I wouldn't put a lot of stock into there as they are, but it's good to be aware of the idea because it just makes you aware that, yes, there are different different people needs you to go. Different people have different problems, but even people who have the same problem might be coming out of it need to be reassured in different ways depending on their own personality.

John Byrne [00:42:58]:

And they they won't neatly fit into anything, but just to be aware that yeah. If you try one way and it doesn't work, that doesn't mean that this person can't be reasoned with. You just try something else. Try it a different way. Some people lots of information. Some people just need broad picture.

Dante Healy [00:43:16]:

Yeah. Ultimately, it's about kind of reading people. And then when you're in groups, in meetings reading the room and getting a feel for what is the overall overall feeling around the change and then tailoring your approach accordingly, whether you you feel like, yeah, there's a lot of good vibes here. So we can we can double down on it and and get momentum, or there's resistance here. And it's not it's not gonna be an easy sell, so we need to tread cautiously and just make sure everything we propose, is is consulted on, and we get buy in upfront. And that's not always easy. It's just gauging the level of effort needed to successfully implement the change.

John Byrne [00:44:07]:

That's and be be willing to, accept feedback and and make people feel you you one thing you don't want people when they're putting change in is you don't want somebody to feel they can't speak out against the change. You know, if they can't speak out against the change, they can't say, then they will fight it otherwise. And those otherwise would be much more difficult for you to even realize are happening, never mind.

Dante Healy [00:44:35]:

Mhmm.

John Byrne [00:44:35]:

But the counter so if somebody has a you know, you make them feel that they, you know, that that there's a psychological safety net there that, yes, they can speak out against what's happening in a a transparent and open environment. They will be listened to, and a discussion can happen. And maybe you'll be able to show them that what their fears are aren't quite there. Maybe they'll have a you you know, it'll turn out that, actually, they have got something very, very relevant that you haven't thought of, and they save you a failed project because they've spoken up that, oh, I'm against this change because of something that you haven't considered. And when you do consider it, you realize, oh, actually, this just change won't work because of that.

Dante Healy [00:45:22]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:45:23]:

I haven't realized that, and and you'd also make people feel comfortable, you know, even if they have different opinions on the change.

Dante Healy [00:45:32]:

Yeah. And do you feel like that you mentioned a few things, and I'm trying to pick out the most important ones. First off, you talked about the importance of psychological safety because people need to be transparent. And in order to facilitate that transparency, you've got to make them feel like that whatever they say, e if even if it's not palatable, if it's what they truly feel, they won't get any negative repercussions for communicating that. But then, also, the piece about has to be very deep, especially in organizations. It's not just individual psychology, but it's the culture. And what you're trying to change is the the set of values and norms that exist already and transform them to something that can be more workable and align with the transformation you're trying to affect. So usually and and it comes back to one where I go back to where the organization was trying to move from a corporate incumbent, legacy corporation with hierarchies and structure to something that is more like a flattened organization where even people at the lowest level can take ownership of decisions.

Dante Healy [00:46:49]:

Because the problem with large organizations is decisions tend to flow up, and then there's the bottleneck of the executive who has to sign off on it. They're not gonna just sign off willy nilly, so then there's a lag because there's too many should we say if there's too many layers of hierarchy, it goes up, up, up, up. There there's gonna be there's gonna be a delay whilst you're waiting for that to filter back down again. And and the communication overhead is huge. So but then to do that, you need to empower people. But it's more than just empowerment. They need to be capable of making the decision. They need to have a have credibility and competence in order to make the assessment and and make the right course.

Dante Healy [00:47:36]:

Yeah? Because too many wrong course, you you lose your business. Right?

John Byrne [00:47:40]:

Oh, that's it. But, you know, I think a lot of it as well is the psychology, the culture, the the the business, that that they need to feel confident, like, they can make a mistake in order to take their arm, that they feel, okay, if I make a mistake, I'll be helped. Everybody will walk with me to to fix things, and I learn from that and won't do it again. Whereas if people are starting to if communication, if trust is not there, then people will feel like I can't make a mistake, and that's when they won't make any decisions. They'll pass the book up to somebody else because they're afraid to. And and that's for change management. That is is is a terrible situation to have. If people don't feel they can trust the themselves or not.

Dante Healy [00:48:21]:

Just had the safety net removed by removing the manager from making the decision, and then it's all on them.

John Byrne [00:48:27]:

Yeah. And that's post. That's when they fight change in a big way because then suddenly, if if they if they're afraid to make mistakes or change, change is going to lead to a lot of mistakes at the beginning when things are getting embedded. So that will be.

Dante Healy [00:48:44]:

And it's more than I mean, it's it's easy to kind of understand a change when it's obvious, you know, that their organization is too rigid or things are moving too slowly versus competitors. And so you need to you need to reorganise. You need to you need to adapt. But in terms of implementing those new set of values, I wanted to raise the point from my experience that when we try to implement and organize a global organization wide cultural change, it was a series of therapy sessions where we were talking. And these these sessions were actually good for people who attended because I found myself sitting with, say, BPs and senior executives. And we're on a table. We're just it's not just, you know, that person's that that level and, you know, you're at that level. It was like we were just talking, and it it was across the organization.

Dante Healy [00:49:45]:

And that was kind of good to hear hear their takes on it. But at the same time, like I say, the therapy piece was was was interesting, but there was also outside of that people who weren't buying into the into the cultural change. They just saw it as business as usual. Oh, but you've got a new set of buzzwords that you need to use. This is the new language. So you bake that into your communications. You try and fit it in. So it was a veneer.

Dante Healy [00:50:16]:

There was people trying to affect deep culture psychological change, and then people who were going through the motions. Have you seen that as well?

John Byrne [00:50:24]:

Yeah. I mean, and and that's the thing. And I think that is probably the the the underlying change cycle psychology of change is culture. You know? Cultural change is necessary. If if if the cultural dynamics within the business is is anti change, is is very you know, no mistakes can happen, everything is set in its ways, and this is that, then no other type of change will work. You know, the culture can block that change. And the the first thing you'll have to do before you implement any other change is just try to shift that cultural idea and make it a little bit more, you know, pro change. And that's that that really is a a psychological it's pure psychology there.

John Byrne [00:51:14]:

Now having said that, buzzwords are not a great thing because buzzwords change all the time. You'll be always just coming up with new buzzwords when they sound daft. But language is very important, you know, that your your language needs to align with the type of culture that you want, with the type of change that you want, that you you, you do need to use the right language. And for everybody to have the same understanding of what that language means. So it's it's not necessarily buzzwords. It's okay if buzzwords if everybody understands and has the same meaning for the buzzword and it's important. But within the business, you know, it's it's language. You know? It can be things like the core values and or the the of a business.

John Byrne [00:51:54]:

You know, many businesses will have the core values. Usually sometimes, unfortunately, you see a business will come up with core values and it's just a list of words.

Dante Healy [00:52:03]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:52:04]:

Most businesses, though, good ones will come up with core values, and it's the the list of words. But then each word will have a small definition to make sure everybody in the business means the same thing by that word.

Dante Healy [00:52:15]:

And it has to be supported. I mean, the behavior the underlying behavior has to be supported. Yeah. Coming back to your example, if someone from the lowest level is taking risks and the change intended was people to take more ownership and more responsibility, then as you say, they need to be protected. If someone's taking risk because the culture demands it, but then because of those risks, some mistakes happen, and then they end up getting sacked, then that's not really supporting the change.

John Byrne [00:52:46]:

Exactly. And and and that's where the language is important, but but backing you up with actions. Yeah. And you do need to do that, I think, because if the culture is anti change, it doesn't matter how what

Dante Healy [00:52:58]:

Then it is just buzzwords. Yeah. Let's be more agile. But, hey, let's also keep the bureaucracy as well.

John Byrne [00:53:06]:

Yes. Exactly. That would be we'll we'll be, yeah, you know, we'll do innovation. We'll be an innovative company company. And, yeah, every time somebody comes up with some suggestion for something new, they just shut down and And

Dante Healy [00:53:22]:

we'll just carry on copying our competitors after they've proved the idea right.

John Byrne [00:53:27]:

Exactly.

Dante Healy [00:53:27]:

And we'll do it slowly because we'll need six six different people to approve the same idea.

John Byrne [00:53:33]:

Yeah. So then at that stage, if that's your culture, we'll then adopt it and and go full on where it will stop stop being contradictory. Stop having, you know, core values. Stop telling people this is what you want to do, a, when what you're actually gonna do is big. Just just get in line and say, right. Either we've changed the culture of the company so that we do a, or we stop pretending that we're doing a and just fall in and get on to b.

Dante Healy [00:53:58]:

Yeah. And even though people aren't executives, even if they're at the low levels of the organization, don't treat them like they're stupid. No. If if nothing's gonna change, don't pretend you're doing change.

John Byrne [00:54:12]:

No. Exactly. Because, again, that will when you do then have to change, everybody will will fight against it because they'll just think it's more of the same or the same. So, again, it comes down to trust and honesty. And that there seem to be to to me, the the biggest you know, there are a few ways to deal with the psychology of change. Because, you know, the resistance to change, it's natural. It it's what humans have always kind of done. We we're adventures as a species, but we're also incredibly resistant to change that we we don't tend to like to change to try new things.

John Byrne [00:54:46]:

So, you know, you accept that. Don't dismiss it, but but try to work with people to encourage it. And trust is is is one of the key ways to do that. You know, be be honest with your communications. Communicate bad news as well as good news.

Dante Healy [00:55:05]:

Yeah. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't sugarcoat it.

John Byrne [00:55:09]:

And and and don't shoot the messenger either. When somebody gives you bad news, don't take it out on them. Yeah. Accept the bad news and then try to figure out how do we rectify things. But don't make people afraid to give you bad news because if you do that, you you won't get any bad news

Dante Healy [00:55:25]:

until Your communications will shut down. Yeah. You'll have no alert system. You'll it'll be effectively, like, cutting off your nerves, which is great if you're bulletproof. But

John Byrne [00:55:36]:

Yeah. That's it. And and and then as well to be aware that different things will work with different people to alleviate their concerns to the change. Even if their concerns seem to be identical due to their own personalities, their own experiences and that, you might have to try different things with with different people. I you know, I remember one example. We put in the new system and the one of the the the people involved, one of the key people involved hated it, was against it, had nothing to do, and and the the CFO asked them, name he this was one of the techniques the CFO had learned about change management thing. And he said, can you just name name three good things about the system? And the idea being that when the guy names three good things, then you can kinda say, well, it's not that bad. The the guy, he stood there for about two minutes just thinking.

John Byrne [00:56:31]:

Well, he sat there for about two minutes just thinking then just looked at the CFL. I was like, no. I can't name a single thing that's good about the system. That kind of ended the conversation. He he left, and the CFO was kind of stunned and said, all the years I've been doing this, I've never had anybody not even come up with with with one thing. And in the end, that that person actually got on board with the new system, and it was just purely by chance that I we were having problems with the system, and I was putting together a report of all those problems. So I sat down with him and I had an interview. And a lot of his problems he was he was coming out with, some of them were were valid, and we were putting them down.

John Byrne [00:57:06]:

And he was actually he was he was writing off some of his own problems that, you know, he he would list something and I'd say, actually, you know what? That's just me. That's that's not the system. That's irrelevant. Forget that one. So he you know? But But it was just being listened to. It was the act of being listened to. And then I did up the report, and I gave it to the the head management with the thing. And a lot of his problems were were valid, and they would make that report.

John Byrne [00:57:28]:

And that was it. That that's what changed it. He became very pro of the system once that report was done because then he's seen his his issues were being listened to.

Dante Healy [00:57:38]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:57:38]:

That's all he needed, was just that.

Dante Healy [00:57:41]:

I think that's why it comes down to communication is two way. And it's it's it's it's more important to be able to listen to your team than actually dictate always.

John Byrne [00:57:51]:

Yeah. Definitely. And that was a big eye opener for me. I've kind of used that ever since with change management that you'll just listen and don't write off. Even if you disagree with something that somebody is saying, it's still valid to them. So treat it as valid.

Dante Healy [00:58:06]:

Yeah. And, actually, your active resistors are your best ones because they're the ones who will who will alert you to the risks.

John Byrne [00:58:14]:

Yeah. Exactly. It's the people who feel that way but won't say that you you have no idea then what you're doing. But or at least by by by listening to the ones who will say you're encouraging the ones who won't say that, oh, it's safe to speak out.

Dante Healy [00:58:27]:

And the best way the worst resistors are the quiet ones because they're the ones who know how to make a transformation fail Yeah. Not speaking out. Let pretending to be on board and going through the motions.

John Byrne [00:58:40]:

That's it. And and if they're doing it deliberately, there's not a lot you can do about it. But, a lot of the minds doing it deliberately. They're just afraid to speak out. So make sure that's why, like we said earlier, with the psychology thing, make it psychologically psychology safe.

Dante Healy [00:58:57]:

Even if it means not not betraying the confidence, but letting them talk Yeah. And saying it won't go past me.

John Byrne [00:59:04]:

Either if if if that's the thing, if it won't go past you, it won't go past you. Or let them know, yes. I will raise this, but you'll raise it. You know, if you're the the manager, you're the person in charge, don't

Dante Healy [00:59:14]:

I'll I'll play devil's advocate, and I'll I'll actually say yeah.

John Byrne [00:59:18]:

Yeah. So it's all

Dante Healy [00:59:19]:

It's just as a proxy.

John Byrne [00:59:20]:

Yeah. If there's click back, it'll come to me, not you. So feel free to tell me everything.

Dante Healy [00:59:25]:

Yeah. I'll do it for you. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:59:27]:

That's so many different aspects of life with us. You know,

Dante Healy [00:59:31]:

it's And that is great because the the best way to do it is to again, there are people where you can act as a proxy, and it makes you look good as long as you frame it correctly. You're not attacking people, but you are saying, have you thought of this?

John Byrne [00:59:46]:

Yeah. Exactly. And and, you know, again, that's that's, you know, your typical, all these things about good leadership, which project managers have to be good leaders. And that is one of the things. When something bad happens, you take responsibility for that something bad. But when then something good comes of it, give the credit

Dante Healy [01:00:05]:

To the person.

John Byrne [01:00:06]:

To the person

Dante Healy [01:00:07]:

who raised it. Yeah. Yeah. You wait you wait for the response, and then you say, oh, it was this guy's idea if the if it's positively received.

John Byrne [01:00:15]:

Exactly. And then people will get to trust you and and will get to be a bit more open with you that they realize, okay. If this is something that's really gonna kick back, he'll protect me or she'll protect me, whoever the project manager happens to be. And if it's something that turns out to be really, really good, they will actually give me credit for it, that I don't have to you know, I'm not giving them the great ideas and they're hugging all the limelight that that if if it is a good idea that I end up giving them, they will give me the credit. So it really makes a safe environment for people. And as the project manager, as the leader, I think you look good regardless even if it's not your idea. The fact that you recognize that somebody had a good idea and and flag her up, and we'll give them credit and get, you know, you get more good ideas from them then in the future.

Dante Healy [01:01:02]:

Yeah. It's it's it's funny actually because I've I don't know what it is, but I've I think it's mostly what I've seen in certain areas that my definition of leadership recently has been changed to be less about behavior and more about authority. Just because seems like the circles and certainly the the platforms I've been working I've been dealing with have you know, they talk about leadership being behavioral, but the people who flock to leaders are the ones who actually flock to those who are in positions to make decisions. So authority. But with project management, leadership is purely behavioral. It's about not having the authority and being able to influence people to do the right things that will drive the project to success.

John Byrne [01:01:55]:

That's it. We we we mentioned that in one of the past podcasts, I think.

Dante Healy [01:01:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Byrne [01:01:59]:

And it comes down to this as well with I I know it's actually a very good podcast to be listening to because it's, with change management, it's very you don't have the authority as a project manager to force through this change. You have to try and use your, you know, your behaviors, your your

Dante Healy [01:02:17]:

Interpersonal skills, your communication. It is communication.

John Byrne [01:02:21]:

Communication. Yeah. So many so many of these podcasts, I think, are gonna come down to come back to communication. As a person, either you are a communicator. You are a professional communicator. Yeah. You you and and not just on a, you know, giving nice big speeches to big crowds. It's one on one.

John Byrne [01:02:40]:

Yeah. It's a whole team.

Dante Healy [01:02:43]:

It's not about ideas. It's about execution. It's about really making it real.

John Byrne [01:02:49]:

Yeah.

Dante Healy [01:02:51]:

It's not about inspiring. It's about action.

John Byrne [01:02:55]:

It's it's

Dante Healy [01:02:57]:

And I think that's a great place to leave this first part. It I guess, anything you take away from this conversation, John, to wrap up?

John Byrne [01:03:10]:

Yeah. I think we yeah. Most of my my takeaways were were discussed. Like, the key one, like, you know, is to to build trust and communicate clearly. And that's two way communication. You know, like like you you had mentioned, I I I kind of had that in my head where I wasn't being clear with what I was saying, but it's it's two way. You you you take on board what other people are saying and and make them feel that they can they can say it, whether it's good or bad, or whether they perceive it as being good or bad, that they can say it and they trust you. Then you're you're if you can get that, then they're more malleable to coming around to if they trust you and they feel they're safe with you, then they'll they'll give it a try.

John Byrne [01:03:54]:

They'll give the change a try. And, you know, oftentimes, the change won't be so bad when they try. How about yourself? Have you any, major takeaways out of, has anything we've said made you change your mind?

Dante Healy [01:04:13]:

Not really. I think it's been reinforcing what I feel like I already believe, but the new things, at least the things that I kind of agree with but hadn't really given that much deep thought, was really about making sure that the change is embedded for the long term. And also the importance of not just talking, but listening, and then backing it up with actions on the leader's side. Leaders need to be clear. That's a given. Also, frameworks don't seem to be. They're useful to a point, but you have to every circumstance is different, so you have to understand the real driver coming back to your billing example behind the resistance to change. And and that's that's there's it's it's usually more complicated than an individual not wanting to do it because it's hard for them.

John Byrne [01:05:11]:

Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's the thing. Assume the best. Don't assume the worst. Don't assume people are fighting against the change they're trying to implement for selfish reasons. They may not be. It could be just fear.

John Byrne [01:05:23]:

It could be bias, but it could also be something that they're trying to protect somebody else that they they see the change might hurt them. So then you just have to figure that out. And when you figure it out, then try to show them it won't or to the other the other people that probably won't even notice the change. That it'll just be a guy's like, oh, whatever. And if it does work, well, then maybe you need to reevaluate change. That's your possibility.

Dante Healy [01:05:48]:

Exactly. Is it the right thing in the end? Because if there's that much resistance, let's let's pause and take stock of really what are we proposing. Does it make sense?

John Byrne [01:05:59]:

Yeah. That's it. That's it. And and be willing to do that. You know, we're all, these things. We have a bit of flexibility. That's the whole point of the change is, we

Dante Healy [01:06:07]:

have to Even a leader should admit when they feel they're wrong.

John Byrne [01:06:11]:

Yeah. Exactly.

Dante Healy [01:06:15]:

Brilliant. Thank you, John. So hope you enjoyed this session, everyone. Next week, we'll be discussing really how do we measure change success. So, hopefully, you'll be looking forward to that, and we'll tackle defining what success is beyond KPIs and learning from both successes and failures. So stay tuned, John. Thank you very much as always.

John Byrne [01:06:41]:

That's it.