Dante Healy [00:00:06]:

You're fed up with the 9 to 5 You've been working hard for years and you're just not seeing the results you want. You want to break free from the traditional career, but don't know how. Business breaks is here to help. Welcome back to the Business Breaks podcast Today, John and I will be talking about redesigning your career path and how to have successful career pivots. So if you're feeling stuck in your current career or if you're just not sure what to do with your life, you're not alone. Many people feel the same way. The good news is it's never too late to make a change speaking from me and John personally. So in this episode, we'll talk about how to redesign your career path, and we'll hear from our experiences as two people who have made those career pivots we'll also discuss challenges of making a career change and offer some tips for overcoming those challenges. So Whether you're just starting to think about a career change or you're already in the process, hopefully, this episode will give you some help. We hope you'll find it. inspiring John. Let's start with your experience. So what made you pivots? And at what point in your life did you decide you've gone as far as you could with your current career and you needed to make that transition. Did it happen by chance? or was it something that was designed and implemented? The latest one was intentional.

John Byrne [00:01:42]:

It was done intentionally, it I suppose there's a there's a few little bits that you probably don't know about my career path, so this might be a little bit informative for you as well about my my history. I've attempted several pivots to say for you. I I I ended up in accounting as an old management accountant, bake yourself for ended up in that because, you know, it's gonna be one of the old cliche. I didn't really know what to do when I was going to college, picking the courses. I was good at maths, which really should have meant I picked the math subject, but I didn't I picked accountant. And that was how I ended up being an accountant that was just it was the course I got into and then from there. I chose management accountant rather than financial accountant, all the things I'd think, because I I wanted to be able to do, you know, commercial stuff myself. But then I started pivoting reasonably early on. I'm still in accounting, but I switched from retail to practice and typical bling into practice confirmed while I went to practice what I kind of suspected in college. I didn't want to be an auditor. Ended up with financial services, barely lasted a year there. They really didn't want that. But that that's when I made the first big pivot. Pivots was I went back to college. I love radiology, so I went back in the no walk there. It was kind of more one that that aren't else. And, also, at that stage, I built up enough builds that it's very difficult to go back in the whole time. I ended up then having to kind of go back into counting. It was the only thing I could do. So that was a failed attempt at the Then I stayed in an accountant for a long, long time, became qualified as an accountant, but never really liked it. I started liking, well, as part of the accountant role, we started putting in, you know, account systems. Every job has an account here. It was just after a new account system was put in our we had to put one in while I was there. And then we put in a big one, and then we had a new RP system. I really the IT side. Yeah. I then moved on to another the the last experiment role I had finishing up that. That's when I made the decision. I'm not to pivot now. When I finished this role, are not going to become an accountant. They'll want to move into basing IT, you know, you know, as project management. But when you're dealing with those systems, it's the IT space. That's who you're wanting to that was that was the 4th successful pivot that I planned though. It was very easy pivot to make because I had experience in the area from the finance side. So it wasn't that big of a jump to have the experience of the IT side. And then I've done that did that for a while. I jotted it, but started getting a little bit bored, and I made the other pivot then more back. Not accounting, but the commercial size, management consultant, basically. That's what I did. Brilliant. management or something. We're a bit of project management and some projects still. So those last 2 were successful, but they were planned almost a natural moved, and then the other one, the management solving is actually it's it's not a million miles away. There's no accounting involved there. I put the commercial, strategic kind of stuff that is all there and the experience that I built up already still makes it a a natural one. So the only big jump I tried to make was that Again, it's it's just it didn't walk with her. There's just no way to walk there. I did that more because I just wanted to learn about it. So I I don't consider that too much the failure. It wasn't the career move as such. It was just an interesting move. That that's my background a bit. And so how about yourself? You've made pivot as well. So -- Yeah. Much later on in my career. And

Dante Healy [00:04:59]:

I it's gonna sound cliche, but I had an early career failure. Couple of them actually. I got into accounting same as you. Good at math. Didn't know what to do. thought accounting was where the money was at. Yes, it is. But if you're not in the right area, you're not gonna get None of the resources actually land in your pocket specifically, at least not the lion's share unless you're a senior finance leader. And a lot of those senior finance leaders who are I would class as such who usually are that way because They tend to underpay their staff. I remember one of the finance director I learned the most from openly boasted how cheapest teamwork, including myself, which obviously got my go up. On top of the hat, if you do the job well in accounting, it is boring. You have to be diligent. You have to pay attention to the details. You have to plan ahead so there's no surprises. And if there are no surprises, people don't get upset. There's no stress. It's all planned. Apart from, There are all cases where senior executives will make decisions last minute and expect you to pivot on very short notice and try and accommodate very massive shifts. So I learned to do financial planning and financial modeling mainly through designing it or forecast on short notice and doing some wizardry, which was one of the accountants in my team. He was at the end of his career, and he said he'd never seen the like of it. But in terms of the actual, what did I do to try and make those 2 pivots? that failed. The first one was I studied neuro linguistic programming with the intention of becoming a life coach. And I think I felt after I'd actually gotten the certifications, I got up to a NLP practitioner, but I never actually went forward with it. I think what prevented me was, a, not getting clients because I didn't have a clue about how to market my services I was just saying, I am an NLP practitioner, and I want coach people, but I ended up doing it for free and not figuring out how to charge for it because I wanted to do it. And then I was very young then and quite naive and not really able to push myself forward, which you think, well, I should just find the network of people who are doing it successfully and then model them. That's the whole NLP assumption is if you want to create success, you find people who are successful and you copy them. Bone yourself in there. Bit of image. which I didn't really get. And then the other thing I did, which was, again, it was driven by the fact that I was single. I was an introvert. And by introvert, actually, doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I was very shy as a young man. So I started doing salsa dancing. I ended up being reasonably competent at it, and I tried to become a salsa dance instructor. While I was a salsa dance instructor, but I was working within a school, That I was successful in. But to try and break out, start buying a business, that was difficult. Going to university is trying to offer my services for free and again, getting people in a class for free is easy. Trying to set up a class and and get people to pay for it when you're hiring the venues, etcetera. That proved to be a massive cash drain quite quickly. So if you haven't got the audience, you can end up eating up your savings pretty quickly. So I gave up on that, and then double I quit the old salsa bit and then redoubled my efforts to boost my finance and accounting career. And through that, it was really around making sure that I was progressing, at least not maybe necessarily in terms of the career path or moving up an organization, but it was more getting the right experience building up my skills, building up my credentials. So I ended up doing auditing and then more general finance, but I was getting really bored really quickly again. which was the reason I tried other things coaching and the salsa. And I found out that through finances, and that finance career, I could like yourself, I I had been involved in system implementations. I had seen what project managers were doing, and Based on that, just by observing and managing project plans, I thought I could do this. So I retrained as a project manager. I also took up a coding course so I could be more IT centric and understand technologies. I also learned a bit more about databases. And during the pandemic, I left a project management role with a large global company and found another project management role with a different global company but with a different culture and actually pivoted from finance transformation but more from the business side of the range management to what would be finance IT. So being working for IT, but IT as a service for finance and dealing with the latest technologies, which I would say I leverage more of my commercial side of the business rather than my side, but I'm very familiar with the technical side. So I act as the bridge with the technical team as well as the business team. And I find that context switching, being able to pivot from talking about database technologies, APIs integrations, to talking about accounting standards, the differences between an ERP versus a CPM, EPM. I find it quite easy. and them being able to marry the 2. So what I find is I'm talking financial process and functional knowledge with technical people, And then switching and talking technical knowledge with the business side of the finance team, mostly in FPNA. which is quite interesting because I enjoy what I do. I'm not bored, and there's enough variety to keep me occupied, if that makes sense. I am also looking at where do I go from here right now. So right now, I'm just happy where I am. contracting as a freelance project manager at building skills and being given a lot of autonomy to lead the projects on the execution side. And, also, I have to say no surprises for the leadership team who I serve. As far as that between us there, we we've got kind of examples of of a few different ways to try and pivot your your career. And I suppose one of the key things is with people. Now, if you're thinking of it to to rethink it true because there might not be a future in the in the area that you're you're looking to go into for various reasons. I I never pivoted, so I I mentioned, but I I also bought

John Byrne [00:12:14]:

like plan tennis and qualified tennis coach, but I never been attempted to do that further. I'm a few friends, few people you stop sites in here. Look, Thanos. Why don't you just do that? You you enjoy it, and I finally figured, no. I actually would stop in July Penas if I was relying on it for a living. like that. You know? So it kind of can be a little bit the grass is not always greener on the other side, but there's something you really enjoy doing. you may not enjoy having to rely on a foreign living. And even if there is, like, you ran into the problem with results of dancing, might be very difficult to monetize it. It's one thing to have a few people who'll be looking to pay you for something, you know, on a small scale Now if you're relying on a forklift, you need a lot of people to be willing to pay you for anything. So, yeah, allow anybody thinking of doing it, just make sure they're making the right choice to think it through. Is there actually a way to make a living doing it? Now in our case, you're kind of almost doing it by yourself as opposed to just moving into another industry as an employee. And you're moving into another industry as an employee, I suppose, that you're eating in there is a is there a is there a job? Can you get the job? What do you have to do in order to get it? Do you have to go back to college and get we qualified and something completely different, or is it something that you have the soft skills or a bit of experience like our our mills into IT, they weren't huge mills. They they are when you take a step back and you look at them, you've completely changed their careers from finance, accounting to IT. But they were very easy to move us to make. We knew you almost I I think I think it's safe to say we bought in 10 of them because we knew where we wanted some. We made the move deliberately but you could almost sleep walk into that, you know, if you're getting COVID in certain projects that you just suddenly realize, oh, I'm report into IT people now instead of into the finance people, we have the valve. And I'd say that's one of the very more common moves may maybe not quite to project managers like we did, but I do know for a few people who have, in the course of their career, mules from finance into IT. from using the ERP systems over to supporting the ERP. So but people, if you're going to make a career pivots, make sure that you have taught a truth to the extent that with you be able to make money doing it. I thought the idea of being an archaeologist is gonna be great. That's not that's not working. still left the course. So I I have no regrets about the course. I have an academic qualification in archaeology, and it was very interesting because I loved that's probably the the further best. Or maybe if I had to become a professional archaeologist, I wouldn't enjoy it as much as I do now reading about it. Then I suppose the other thing is the the tree broad ways that you could make a pivot. You can the the holy grail will be very, very rare. You can get promoted up into a different industry. Not really liking too often. You're not going to be getting promoted up to a role. You're level of value you've never done before, and also into an industry that you've ever done. So I'm getting the 2 of them. they there'll be the exception rather on the roof, so I wouldn't expect anybody who's taking a pivots to be even trying for that a lot of thing. If the opportunity arises, go for for Avidara. That's -- You'll be overly reliant. Sorry to interrupt. That's it. You'd be over reliant under people sales, and then how many how many roles room you need people skills. Yeah. There's gonna be some kind of a other surf other experience or whatever that you'll need as well.

Dante Healy [00:15:44]:

And the fact that you've never been at that level either that you're being promoted up to it, so you're hitting too many changes all at one go to really put your own stress. Imposter syndrome would be a big challenge because yeah. You'd be you'd be double guessing your team thinking, well, if you can't do it and you're asking other people to do it, how comfortable do you feel making those demands, especially if you don't understand what's going on? For example, on technology side, you're asking, you see it with finance people. They say, oh, it should be easy. It's just this little thing. Hang on a minute. the way this whole ecosystem has been hooked up, there's a lot of dependencies. Everything has to be regression tested. you make one change here is like literally whack a mole further down the line and up the chain, and you have to understand those things. And it's not just The design of the system, the design of the component, the configuration, have you set up your tables correctly, inserting another column to master data table has huge implications down the road. But, yeah, it's I agree. Sorry, John. What was the other point you were gonna make? Hello. I was just gonna say then the other two ways that you then

John Byrne [00:16:58]:

pivot sideways, which is kind of what we've done moving from finance IT. we moved to more or less the same level, the same realm of the career ladder that we were at, but just in a difference in the that's more common. It's sounding more common than moving up, runs at the ladder and across the air from the screen. You have to move straight across. and you can do it with ways like like we did, but it's not a million miles away from what you were doing. It can be done that way. And then the toward which I say is the most common, which is what you did with the NLP and the salsa dancing. It's what I tried to do with the archaeology. moving down rooms at a ladder. Maybe, you know, some people be moving right back to the very beginning going back to college. Others may be not going that far, but they will be going down several rooms in a ladder to move across. That's the most common. It's the bravest as well. probably because you're taking a gamble there that you or you're giving up money. That that's if you're going to do that, just make sure, hey, that it's not a case of scream around the other side that you genuinely will you know, why are you making this news? Make sure you know why. And then but once you're happy that, yes, you you know why you're making move. It's not a fantasy. It's you genuine. You will be happier in that industry or or or then go for it. It is is what I would say. If you have the finances, you can make sure that you can pay your bills, even if you have to go back to college or or whatever, whether you're do that part time, or whether you're gonna do a full time, I'm really happy with ultimately I've made that move sideways but I had over the course of it. I I done and done courses. I've done project management courses. I've done business analysis certification. I've done, you know, management solving various courses and things like that. I did them while I was walking, so I I kinda did them part time almost. Then I finished doing the accounting courses that got qualified, I continued on doing other courses to make the moves. So I didn't quite have step back because I had those courses done, but I've made I I've no regrets whatsoever as old people are thinking of doing it. Just make sure you pick something that you'll enjoy for the right reasons, don't make a move because you just hate the job you currently have. Is it you hate there? Is it do you hate the industry or currently in? and need to make a career a bit or you just hate the role you have, maybe it's your boss, maybe it's company that you're working for, in which case you don't have to change industry. Maybe it's job. You have to change environments one way or another, but is the environment the career

Dante Healy [00:19:36]:

Is it the industry? So, for example, is it that you wanna get out of banking, for example, to site manufacturing or distribution or some other service. Maybe you just have an itch you wanna scratch because there's a bottle of you that's really interested in one particular facet. I don't know. For example, mobility. You know, you want to be able to solve this real world problem about how do people get from point a to point b suspending the traditional ownership model of having to have a vehicle to get anywhere comfortably, freedom. How do you define it? So those sort of things maybe are like real world issues you wanna address, you wanna contribute to world hunger, whatever you wanna call it. But, yeah, They all I love the point, and I wanted to come back to it about being clear about what's a hobby versus what your vocation in life. Now they talk about Ikigai where what are you good at, what do you what are you as passionate about and what has market value. And if you could marry the 3, then you've got it because You're gonna be happy with what you're doing. You're gonna it's gonna play to your natural strengths, and you're gonna get commercially rewarded. So that's one thing. Having said that, easier said than done because a lot of the time, people will probably say, oh, I wanna just bum around and create content and get paid loads of money through affiliate marketing. Everyone wants to do it and everyone's trying to do it. Including myself, I mean, this podcast is actually media, isn't it? It's creation, but You've got to enjoy the process and you've got to recognize what's actually a hobby versus what is really something you wanna do all time because you love doing it. Now fortunately podcasting, I love talking even though maybe people might say, well, I don't like to hear you. Not everyone wants to hear me, and that's okay. But I guess coming to the salsa piece, I wanted to say the same with you and your ideology. I think with you, You you mentioned how archaeology you just couldn't find any worthwhile roles or any worthwhile career path that would have made it worthwhile even though you enjoy studying archaeology and history. That is a fascinating topic. With me, salsa dancing was fun as a hobby. I got to fill a gap which was more related to my social awkwardness in the early agent. But trying to turn that into a commercial enterprise where there were a lot of schools starting up, a lot of people with a lot more experience in terms of how to market, how to network, how to build an audience, how to create demand. I was trying to do everything on the cheap which again is probably more my accounting background without think of the idea of the customer experience. So I ended up trying to use a a home sound system, which didn't have the same impact as someone who bought in a DJ. And having the right venues, You know? I was putting on these nights thinking, I just have to copy what everyone else was doing. But again, not really focusing on the quality of the event, quality of the venue. And again, because venues are expensive to hire, especially the good ones. at least expensive for me if I'm not bringing in enough customers. So it's a vicious cycle. And I found out over time I didn't enjoy it And even as a hobby, I hated it, and it was only when I gave it up and started going back to salsa as a post on where I was a paying customer. that I started to enjoy it because I started to get better as a dancer just purely for the fun of it. I started making friends rather than seeing everyone as a potential customer, and I could choose who I who I wanted to spend my time with, if that makes sense. So, again, you have to think about those freedoms that you give up in your hobby if you're trying to turn it into a career. So and but I don't know if that's I guess the other thing as well is supposed to do

John Byrne [00:23:54]:

they they're kind of experiences of pivoting to yourself your own business as opposed to pivoting as an employee into another career at. But I was thinking if if if anybody is other, I think pivots to set up their own business, so they kinda needed to realize this. Like, in that situation, which you you were not pivots, although you talked at the time, probably You were you are pivoting to become a sales instructor. You were not pivoting to become a sales instructor. You were pivoting to become Mark as Gene Expert, CEO of a small business, a an accountant of tax, doing tax returns, you're pivoting into being entrepreneur, running a business, which is a lot more for yourselves, a man that kind of said, you dividend job. I am you know, it fails in large part because you at that time, most likely, you're pivoting to being a sales instructor. didn't even realize you should have been marketing on on all the rest of it. And I think that's a key thing. I think we have covered it previously on another podcast about setting up entrepreneurs setting up business and that that key part of it is marketing and that well, you're you're going into business for yourself to do something that you enjoy. And if that's your career, to realize that you're taking on more than just doing the the thing that you enjoy, you have to run a business of a so much more involved than that. Maybe doing the thing you enjoy will be great, but can you do all the other stuff? Then there will be people who, okay, Like, I want to sell my own business. I just want to change my career. I want to get into maybe, for example, maybe it's an accountant currently who wants to get into, hey, John. maybe they want to get into operations, maybe they just read, you know, operations, technology, maybe they want to do, like, from finance to IT. if it's that kind of a pivots, if it's that kind of a a role, I suppose you don't have all the other hassle, you know, of all the size of a running your own business. So it might make it a little easier. But there's still, like you said, you know, you you haven't done the networking, the marketing, and all that. That is still part of it. If you want to still a career pivot, gonna have to do the the networking and the the marketing of your own abilities to to get opportunities. Absolutely. It's reconnaissance.

Dante Healy [00:26:06]:

At the end of the day, you have to have the conversations with people who are in the jobs you want to aspire to. and also to understand what whether there's a a a fit for you. You need to establish a, what are the challenges What are the opportunities? But more importantly, what are your skill gaps? because you're gonna have to figure out how do I convince someone else I can do the job that I want, at the level I want to attain the income that I'm comfortable with Now stepping down is one thing if you're happy with that because you wanna make that sideways ship. But are you able to step down and be comfortable with maybe a drop in income. Maybe you're lucky because you can you can use some of those transferable skills you might have. in order to move up pretty quickly.

John Byrne [00:26:58]:

Over then, that's yeah. I've just got to say that, actually. I I don't want to admit that we're being a little bit negative at the moment because we're playing out these are the challenges. And we're not being negative about us, to people who pivots it, we we are very much on for it if if you want pivot, pivots. But and I will say this that to anybody listening, right, if you've got experience, say, and you pivot to a completely different career path, And even if you have to step right back, go back to college and start again and come up, you still have advantages. As as you just mentioned that, you you sought skills you've experienced in how business really works compared to how it theoretically works in academia that don't be afraid to do that. If you can afford it, if you've done the the maths, you you can afford to do it. And because when you start back on that new career ladder, and you have an advantage over all the other graduates, so that they're coming from an academic background with no real life experience or her. You have the real life experience. Things do not go exactly like the interior you were taught originally. So this new industry, yes, you don't know how they're going to work out exactly what you do. Now you have high expectation. It's not going to be exactly like you're learning college. There's going to be differences. So at least you won't be caught by surprise or that will give you an advantage that even if you're starting off at the same level as a complete new career person, right, and graduate. And you will probably accelerate above them if you make sure that what what transferable skills you have make sure that you find June's then in for this new career. So while we're discussing the challenges, let's just make people don't underestimate that. It is a challenge. But we're we're no make way, shape, or form, and we, yeah, same people don't do it. I I'm I'd be saying, do it. Do it.

Dante Healy [00:28:49]:

Yeah. And that's not to say that they don't accelerate up pretty quickly either. But coming to your point. Yes. Again, I I want to just add a little caveat to what you said, if you don't mind, that a lot of graduates do leave university completely green, but there are some exceptional graduates. They do build up their experience even from school. when they're doing their GCSEs and A levels, they're working on the weekends. In a supermarket, you see them in the front office. They're doing customer service. They're getting that exposure to doing face to face interaction. And so they understand how business works, at least from that that perspective, maybe even in a warehouse where they're having to move products and services, making sure that tells us tools a man. The shelves are are completely replenished.

John Byrne [00:29:47]:

They'll have yeah. They they were dying to witness the exceptions. There'll be some exceptional individuals who are as a general rule, though, I think somebody who's got experience who goes back we'll have an advantage over most. Uh-oh. I mean, some, you know, that thing. But when the chips are down yeah. Exactly. That's it.

Dante Healy [00:30:04]:

I did the McDonald's stint. Right? And even before I was at school, I worked in a corner shop with my dad, so I got to observe him. I did his books when I was in my teens, entering numbers on spreadsheets, doing the VAT returns for the accountant because he was my dad's friend and He was mentoring me. I think that was the other reason I fell into accounting. He was successful in the sense that he he planned his financial career out. and he was very astute in investments. He wasn't very astute dealing with a tax man in the end which was unfortunate, but That's that's another story. But I think you you you get those exposures. It's good to try things out when you're young. I think that's my one regret is not taking those risks and failing sooner in my and again, when you do When you do decide to pivot later in life, you have to understand that there may be that risk that a You take a drop in salary initially and b. You're competing with people and because to an extent, it is competition if you want to reach the high level, which you're competing with people who may have may be more experienced in your domain that you'll you're just pivoting into, you may be able to leverage those wider perspectives and be more creative in your approach or find solutions because you have a broad breadth of experience versus the debt, and and that could be something that dynamically, you'll be able to leverage in order to move up faster, whether it's being able to marshal the resources, Minimize the risk because you're not one of these people who's functionally pigeonholed. And that's another thing is the breadth. I think a lot of what I've learned has been academic, but you try to relate it to your real world experiences. Now what I've what I didn't have was marketing sales and I still, to an extent, struggle with networking, but more so to the fact that I I am very selective who I network with you should be ideally, you network with people who are like you, and and those are the people who, I guess, who you Well, when I say like you, who you gel with, who you naturally mesh with because trying to get on with people who you don't naturally resonate with, It's hard work. Maybe there can be challenges, but I I think as well, though pivoting your career is something that more and more people I don't have to

John Byrne [00:32:45]:

learn how to do. It's like, there was a stage where, you know, it was a job for life. You had one job, one company, and it lasted like that. It's long long. but it still became a stage where it was a career for, like, you just did it in several different companies. Whereas nowadays, I'm I'm kind of especially, it seemed to happen a now during the, you know, the great resigning. Was that what they were calling out? Great resignation. Great resignation. Everyone trying to be like independent. They're freelancing. They're freelancing. But a lot of them a lot of them are freelancing, but a lot of the miles of switch career told that there was a lot of people who were walking in hospitality who figured, oh, hospitality is gone now with clothes. I'd more to go walk in an office. I'm going to do something completely different. So the the there's a large chunk of people now out there who have had some degree of a pivot in their career. I'm not just working for themselves, but we're we're switching in actual careers even if staying as an employee able for a completely different type of work.

Dante Healy [00:33:46]:

And I think that's gonna be a skill that's that's gonna be more needed as you as you go. You know, not not so much freelancing. Not so much going out on your own, which will have a a role play. Being able to actually tone your mind is completely different. types of all. So that idea of being able to reinvent yourself continuously and the coherent narrative that says, I I was intentional about this, and it hasn't been random because you don't want to go to an employer and and if they say So you were a barman, you were a recruiter, you went into sales and marketing, then you went into finance. Why do you wanna work in IT now? It doesn't look like a scattergun approach, but there's a story behind it. You could probably present it And, again, this is where the networking comes in because you get to talk to people. You get to give them the confidence that even though you might end up with a sketchy career path, they know that or they can at least be happy to take a chance on you because you've shown so many other things like Ideally, you wanna paint a career of achievements and that you've naturally outgrown what you were doing, but there was nowhere else to go. So you decided to find another challenge to actually concur. So that's the narrative I would pay rather than I didn't have a choice. I I guess that's the That's the crux of it. You don't wanna be in an interview saying, well, I had nothing better to do. This seems like the best thing going right now in terms of my options. Even even if that is the truth about why I'm moving, you don't want to admit that. And you might not be intentionally admitting that, but you never know if the interviewer is is already framing that in their head even if that not what you're saying, they may interpret it in that way. Exactly. And that's kind of the modern day version of people from 20 years ago who were constantly changing jobs

John Byrne [00:35:53]:

Now, in the end, it's time where you had one job for life in one company and people were constantly changing companies. Yeah. They had to explain why were they constantly like that. Whereas now it's not changing company starts to constantly give them. Yeah. It's changing careers, and it's almost coming to the same thing there. So -- It's adapt is your it's it's upgrading your skills continuously. It shouldn't be punished. It should be rewarded. It should be celebrated.

Dante Healy [00:36:17]:

And ironically, you're probably we still have a population of very senior people designed pre the turn of the century on I think

John Byrne [00:36:28]:

play it on a little bit earlier. And when I said, now don't don't do it just because you think the brass is greener. Well, one of the things that you you mentioned about the networking find out what's involved. Do do you have the acumen to do that new career or find people that were in it? And one of the key things to find out is what exactly do the people in that career do. I mean, how about yourself, you do a job now and somebody looking from the outside being able to think you do this particular thing. And they may think that's really boring or they may think that's brilliant. But they'll they'll seem one aspect of the job. But what you actually do, that's only probably 10% of your job, you're doing a whole lot more of the background that they don't know, though. And that could be what the it could be the same thing when you look at somebody you think I'd love to do with that career. I'd love to be in that role in that job. And he's like, right, I'm going to pick it up. I'm going to move over. I'm going to plan how I'm going to get there. Well, find somebody who actually does that, find out, you know, warts and all, what exactly is it that they do on a day to day basis. because what you might find is the bit that you really like, only makes up about 5% at our job, and there's 95% that you would absolutely hate. Exactly. Before you move there.

Dante Healy [00:37:37]:

you'll see in the trailer, it could be an amazing trailer, but a bad, bad movie that you'd wish you'd never bothered watching.

John Byrne [00:37:45]:

So be very careful, don't confuse the trailer for the actual plot. Exactly. So again, I'm not saying that to put people off the other thing. I'm saying that just to prepare for the pivots. Try not to accidentally do it, and try to plan her out because when I think you have a better chance of success in plan her out, it's an accident you're you're just kind of you're you're you're gonna have a hard time explaining to potential future employees, like, our usual self. Why did you make this feel? Oh, because that I'm not however even happened. I just was in this place one day, and then somebody said, do you wanna do this? And I said, yeah. And that was the end of it. Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:38:19]:

You don't wanna be that accidental person is at the right time, or maybe you do. Maybe you can say, how many how many great careers have been attributed to luck being in the right place at the right time. But then the people who do like to say you make your own luck, if you're proactive enough, you position yourself in the right to be that right person in the right place at the right time. So again, it's about how do you frame and again, that comes back to brand. You have to really focus on your brand that says, what is it you stand for and how do you align with the demand in the market? Because, again, Things things are very fluid. And people are businesses demanding more of people because That's the competitive nature of business unless you're in a very, very protected industry that has some natural competitive barriers entry, you're gonna be finding yourself having to be more than you probably were the previous year in order to qualify or a interview. Never mind getting the job just the interview consideration. So I think it's great. I think it can be difficult, but, also, you probably you probably need to just think things through. How do you how do you how do you market yourself? How do you promote yourself? Again, coming back to that, being a failed Having a couple of sale businesses in the background because you had to be all things to all people. And instead of doing a few things well, and outsourcing the stuff you're bad at. You tried to do everything at once and you did it badly and you were learning on the fly and you ran out of cash before you could master everything you needed to master in order to have that successful business. That's the thing. Wow. And I guess, another thing I wanted to say regarding the networking aspect, it's it's really important to make sure that you have a good network to people who can advise you well and and give you the right guidance, be able to tell you where you sense check your ideas, because a lot of what you're gonna say may not be well considered. And again, you don't want to be feeling like you have to jump because you're following someone else who's been successful in that because you don't know what they what else they had to do to get to that success. Definitely doing your research. what you don't want to do is pivot into another career path

John Byrne [00:41:00]:

and kind of be successful in doing it and then realize I absolutely hate this now. What do I do? Yeah. And I saw a run yeah. Sorry. And I go back to my old career, Can I that makes it a little bit more difficult to use mine in an interview with with your left, while you're back, and do I pivot into yet another career path that is where it's a little bit of research doing your networking. So your networking is on your going inside your comfort zone because you're not going to it's not networking with people that are in your current your current career path, who are easy to Netwoper, just to try Netwoper people who are in the one you want to move in. How'd you get into that? You're not a member of the yo, you're not a member of that network because you do not walk in that career. So but you you need to start trying to that walk. That can be really difficult, especially if you're an introvert and they'll go in person to be very difficult to get into that book. I think it is important to find out. Be sure before you pivot into the career, that that it's likely to be that the company you work for may end up not being the company you like, but the career path you've chosen is at least is something for a while. Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:42:06]:

And bear in mind the growing pains, give it a proper chance. Don't just don't just revert back because it gets difficult in the early stages because that's the worst thing you can do. I think it's easier. One of the benefits I've had is that I've shown a a stable career bot. in terms of the things I've done so that when I did make that pivot, people took it. You don't wanna have 5 different roles that don't really connect. And, actually, I was sorry for interrupting you previously, but I wanted to come back to that point about the hospitality workers Why move during the great resignation by moving away from hospitality into office job, created a natural shortage which has meant hospitality workers have finally had that much needed compensation increase. So, yeah, it went with it's gonna be flight is in supply and demand. And if if the hospitality worker is moved across, there's suddenly missed out on that salary jump and then decides to move back, will they get the increased salary? Interesting. Alright. Well, will they want to? Maybe they're happy, more secure with their office role.

John Byrne [00:43:18]:

But do do you ever say, like, I I I know a person who do you ever think as well as be realistic with your certifications. Again, I know a person who did a pivot said they'd done the research. And, actually, from a career point of view, pivots it into a career, choice that they would enjoy. but they they were moving backwards in order to do it. They got the job. They made they were successful with the pivot. They got a job in the new career path that they wanted And I talked to them, they had the job of 4 months, and they were already talking about looking to be promoted. But we can kinda they're thinking, hang on a second. woah. You've got all that experience in this brand new role that you've got. You're not going to be getting promoted in the next couple of months. They they they only see at the dawn on them then that they were at the bottom of their career path compared to mid the they they were below mid. They were actually still quite junior on their previous career. They just weren't making any headway on it. You know? They'd been in it for an awful long time, but they haven't really gotten promoted. So it wasn't a good career for they moved the grass, but they were expecting to to fly up the career ladder and kinda, okay, that's not realistic. If you can take a step back and you change career, You're on a new career that are you're not going to fly up, but you're going to move up at the same pace as you would normally expect. But the the difference is hopefully for you that the new career path to the career ladder will be one that you will progress. You won't be like this. You know, the guy who he got stuck at a certain level. in his previous career and couldn't get past it. In the new career, I reckon he he could easily get past it. But he was just being unrealistic with his timelines that He only had the job 4 months. I think he was still on probation technique. He

Dante Healy [00:44:59]:

he was he was getting annoyed because he wasn't know, getting promoters and you're not thinking that's you need a couple of years of experience before you can realistically get major promotions and any meaningful way. And it all comes back to expectation management. Be realistic about that. Before I made that career switch from finance to IT, I was studying up on technology for at least a good 5 years doing little bits and pieces. And I had a background in sequel BBA, and also just applications even as a user. And, also, I did a lot of regression testing from the business perspective so I understood how to implement systems. And we do implement systems in finance. We'll be accounting systems, so it wasn't a huge pivot. And then obviously, taking a career break to do a coding boot camp, I understood more about setting up your code, setting up your development environment, best practice on creating apps. So those things, and I bled through that period because I realized how ignorant I was of technology, and I still I'm still learning today because there's levels to this game. I'm working with people in IT who've been there 20, 15, 20, 30 years who know the game inside out. And you're realizing you do stop from another another level, and you have to you have to find that degree of maturity. You can't just You can't just wing it and I think it does a disservice to any profession. So I think you can just shoot up the ranks Well, you can, but let's face it. You're not gonna be shooting up the ranks of the basis of a deep understanding. You're gonna find it on your people skills, your soft skills. But let's say, for example, you've got someone who you've got a problem, a business problem, and people are looking at you as the leader or the manager. to deal with it and you're having to rely on the people around you, which is okay as long as you keep them happy. There's a dependency on that. Right? And that's okay as long as you're aware of that, but be realistic about, you know, what you can solve, what you can't. And if you're comfortable not knowing everything about your area, that's fine as well. But then you're not a manager, you're more of a people leader, and that's where your soft skills have to be really on point down to be be making that paper for the right read. Is it genuinely that you need to change your career or do you just need to change it? And are you really are you really going into it for the right reasons, or are you just faking it? That's the worst kind of faking it, doing it for a compensation hike and just and and just messing up some poor person's department, some unfortunate companies function just for your own gratification. Are are you doing it? Are you doing it? Because you like the the idea of Now again, no, that's an industry because his brother is all woke in the industry in our area, and he kind of almost is

John Byrne [00:48:06]:

feels that that this this is

Dante Healy [00:48:08]:

prestige. Basically, that's why he's doing Batus is a huge huge motivator. Right? It's a huge motivator for people who want to climb the career ladder because they get to make the decisions. They make the calls They determine how the resources are distributed and by resources are usually mean compensation. It comes back to that monetary reward rightly or roughly.

John Byrne [00:48:35]:

I kind of between don't just do it don't just do it for money. Obviously, maybe a different career about it. Would I'll give you higher compensation, higher money. And also but don't do it for prestige because you you perceive that particular job titles in and in a career. have more prestige than others. Now if that's the only reason you're moving -- Like, just -- Yeah. -- you're never gonna get high enough to get those prestige titles because you're you're going for the wrong reason. You're not necessarily looking at a career that you will be good at and will enjoy. You're looking at a career that has nice procedure cycles. Yeah. Which I I, as I said, I know people that that actually did pick their career based on prestige. they thought it would be a blessing of somebody who who became a doctor because that was the the the aunt doctor and Laura, they they were not for a while, and they hated it. They they actually won pharmaceuticals out. They're not a million miles away. They did a career pivot, but they're their doctor's qualification is still relevant to them, but they just weren't good at being a doctor. And there's, again, doctors.

Dante Healy [00:49:40]:

There's there's more than just prescribing some medicines based on a condition. You have to investigate. You have to analyze. You have to have a good bedside manner depending on how it evolved you all with your patience.

John Byrne [00:49:53]:

He just didn't think at all. He he did it as the prestige of being a doctor. You know, when when he was going to college, when he was signing, that was the prestigious day, and he had the brains to get it into the the the courses. But one of his big It it wasn't that he he wasn't good at being a doctor. Was he just to be honest, he just couldn't cope with some people or in that industry. Some people are just sick, and there's not gonna be, like, you can do apart from trying to make them as comfortable as possible for bad things to happen to them. and that's why he couldn't take he just didn't have the personality for that. Now that's kind of something that, you know, if you obviously knew him at the time, kind of, enable, what the hell is he? after 4 because he's not going to be able to cope when he has failed these things. But he did it for a presage. Now he's, as I said, his qualification is still relevant to him, but he doesn't deal with patients. He's he's a research fan on pharmaceuticals. He's found he pivots and found the area that he's best in. But he went into that career for the wrong reasons. He went into a proper stage and not become and talked to the actual woke involved. I'd rather he'd be suitable if I was just there. Some people will do it for just for money. But, again, if if it's something that makes you miserable, no amount of money is going to bake up for the better off. Pick pick it. If you're pivoting career, pick 1. Do it for the right reasons. Pick it because if something that you'd be good at, we'll reasonably enjoy. Nobody enjoys everything. You have to enjoy selling off of it to be happy when you're there doing it. And and be sure that you're leaving your current career because the career is not for you rather than make a bus. And that's that is such an important point is

Dante Healy [00:51:27]:

all of that reconnaissance The first question you have to ask is what are the worst bits about the job? Because that those are gonna be the ones. that are gonna really determine, and you stick this out for the long haul. And again, finance, for me, the worst bit about finance was the ethical dilemmas. you're presented with when you're being put under pressure to doctor the statement because the business needs to hit a target and You're under pressure to say, can't do this. At least, I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna sign off on this. external entry or this this reported forecast number because I can't make it I can't I can't see any way we're gonna meet this target or this this forecast, this prediction of financial performance.

John Byrne [00:52:15]:

I just found it. I I enjoyed Sarat and I saw that But as I said, I I enjoyed the strategic, that kind of thing. I just found the day to day stuff so mind is normally boring. Now there are other people who love it. There were people who are born to be accounts. They absolutely loved it. They didn't they just you know, it was a nice process. This is this, this, this, and this.

Dante Healy [00:52:37]:

highlight there. Well, systemizing things, designing it in a way and optimizing it. I mean, you can find ways to try and tweak it, but then After 2 years, you should be thinking, well, what's next? Yeah.

John Byrne [00:52:50]:

Maximum 2 years, you know, because you've done this Or is Deepak? Actually, while I was finding that AI, I I I I was starting to look and see about, you know, wanting to know. And then you're trying to come up with an excuse. So why are you moving? when you go for your next interview, how are we going to explain? Oh, I just -- Yeah. Yeah. -- so you want to build down and try a new challenge. So that's when I I project management and working for myself doing it and now the management consult. because the beauty of that is, yes, there's a similarity to what I'm doing for every client. But each client has their own challenges. So you don't have time to get bored. You're too busy trying to figure out what's best for this client. That's why so I I yeah. you have sort of correct kind of career path for me. Yeah. That's

Dante Healy [00:53:38]:

that's why I love project management. There's always gonna be some scope creep in there. that you have to either reject or manage or accommodate. And if worst case scenario, you escalate if it's that important if you can't absorb it within your existing timelines because let's face it. You have to have some flexibility. You have certain level of resource. And at a time, you know what your team are capable of and whether they can make the changes. and you'll you'll report to it because you have to be transparent. The reason senior management let me get on because they trust me to do the job And if I talk to people, I will give them any any time you come to me, I'll be able to tell you where we are in a project and What are the dependents, based on what are the risks? But that's that's the key thing is understanding what's going on. And you can't do that without having an understanding of what it takes to deliver and what are the timelines involved and the the capabilities of the team you have to hand. And also even to an extent, my biggest my biggest challenge is not coming up with the solutions on the flight too quickly without fully understanding the problem and analyzing it through the

John Byrne [00:54:56]:

you you made those logic bleeps. Right? I think, though, that's that depends on the person. So that's one of the things. I think if you're making a quick pivot, the the p value of these these things there, know know thyself. You know? Figure out what before you you decide what career, what is it that you're probably seeking? Do you like, do you not like, are you one of these people who gets bored easily and wants constantly changing challenges? Yeah. which they'll make sure that the career pivots you're taking is going to be in somewhere where you're going to get constantly, or are you one of these people who who bangs their head off the wall when they go in and Somebody's coming up with some new problem, something constantly changing, and, you know, it's just getting too much free. You want some kind of consistency, that's just, you're just doing data processing all of that. It's just the same thing every time. If that's what you prefer, then pick a career that does that. You'll make sure you pick the right career. Or heaven forbid, you want a little bit of both, but not too much of either. and you want a variety.

Dante Healy [00:55:56]:

So, again, some financial roles give you that where you can have the day to day or or, like, the regular routine, but it's mixed with an element of project work. And I think for someone just starting out, that's probably a happy middle ground. to sort of build up your experience and also feel like you're contributing at a certain level with something that you can do autonomously until you build up that understanding and that confidence to actually handle something and make those operational tactical decisions before you go strategic, but have that some the best leaders I've worked for. They weren't they weren't parachute eating, and they weren't MBAs. There were people who actually work their way up the organization, everything inside out, and understood the whole business end to end. Those were the people I respected because they asked the right questions when you presented them with the information. They they could they could target zone in on the problems.

John Byrne [00:57:02]:

and they will I'd say, we're often than not, they were right. And that may be easier. The easier option when it comes to query pivots is if it's possible to move within the business that you're in. But rather than trying to switch everything. If you like, that is again, that comes back to making sure that you're move pivots for the right reason. Do you hate the company you're in? In which case, that's not gonna work. You need to lead the company. But maybe you don't need to change career, maybe you just need to lead the company and stay in there. Just change the environment and, again, find the right culture that aligns with you. your personal values. Yeah. And if you like the company, if you really enjoy the company and that you're worked for, but you hate the job And we'll have them making that is a sign. Career pivots is saying, but if that's catch there and see if there's a career pivot within the company because that might be from a networking point of view, you already have the network within that company. So you might see opportunity to move across, try something new to find out what's involved in it. But then that did you might move up the ladder a little bit quicker than because you you won't necessarily have to take as far as that packet. You're staying at the same company. You might be able to do it sideways. Philip, then like you said, then the best leader to know the company inside out. So if you stack it and promote us up the the new career path, You'll still have advantage of knowing that company inside out because you've started off in albeit in a different career, but you you you've you're still in the same company in the same business. So it might help you later on to get more senior much more senior role by pivoting in the same same company expense base if it's possible, you know, maybe the company's too small for that. I mean, it's -- Can't grind fast enough to give you that growth. You might be waiting 40 years and still not be moved up because no one's moving on. Well, at least though, if if if you can pivot within that company, you can at least get some experience in the new career in that company before you leave the company to go somewhere else. Again -- Yeah. Yeah. No. That's how you can stay in the in the industry, maybe. Yeah. So that would be a key thing as well. Don't confuse career pivots with promotion pivots. Yeah. There's difference. So I mean, if you're doing a career pivot, pivot the career force, the established in the new career, and then we're developing promotion. So it can be a lot easier to create within the existing company that you're a valued company. You may not get promoted in the new career, and if that's because the company is it's just the scale of whatever. Wherever, at least you get your experience there. You can use another company for a Thanks, John. And one other thing in terms of networking which popped into my head even if you're rotating internally, find network within your industry, but externally talk to suppliers, talk to customers. They just give you that more that more

Dante Healy [00:59:46]:

that better grounding and depth in terms of your understanding. The more you can talk to external people, stakeholders, the better you are positioned to have a much more holistic perspective on where your business is where it's going, and what are the issues. That's it. And we kind of covered a bit of networking when we discussed promotions, preview, and then on the podcast. And the exact same thing

John Byrne [01:00:14]:

for this, you know, you're you're looking to be promoted to it. parallel or whether you're looking to to switch careers, all comes down to just doing that bit, networking, that research try to be external. Within the company is easier to to get it if there's room there. But even beyond that, right, to to find excuses to that will outside, you know, things like the chambers of commerce and stuff like that where you're meeting lots of different people from lots of different companies, lots of different industry with lots of different careers. So, like, give you some ideas as to where you might want to pivot. And then when you get some ideas from them, you can kinda follow-up with them and try to find out as much about that career as possible before you take the leap nor just it just helps. And and I say that somebody who hates hey. It's not working. I cannot do it well. I know. Yeah. Simon, man. It it is important to do it. And how much you and how uncomfortable it makes I have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable until it feels less uncomfortable if that makes sense. And accept that, some people are brave that they're walking, and you're making one of them. Number Chase, you will have a great advantage, but who who hate now working. It it is. And it it it can be horrible. Well, you'd be surprised that once you get out there and start it's the thought of it. The thought of it is what is worse than actually doing it. Yeah. When you're there, it's not so bad, but the thoughts of it I mean, the thoughts will never get easier. Even now, I know from experience, I I I was at an event on Wednesday, and while I was there, I was fine. but still the tarts of having to go to another one. So it's like, on alphany.

Dante Healy [01:01:51]:

And I'm I'm pretty bad with networking as well. But, fortunately, I have friends in the event I went to this week. So I am by my own mission in that regard, clunky, But I did talk to other people as well, and I had a few very good conversations. You don't want to be too insular. Use it as a support mechanism, a safety blanket, if you will, but stretch yourself, always look to stretch yourself because I got some very valuable insights as well, just from having the conversations and hopefully sharing some of my own insights, which did help of new people. Like, I hadn't thought of that. That's always nice to hear. And just playing out to anybody who is listening

John Byrne [01:02:38]:

the the event that I referenced, I was at Jordan Week, and the event that Dante referenced, that he was at Jordan Week. They're 2 different events for 2 different countries. We weren't each other's safety blanket at the day's event.

Dante Healy [01:02:50]:

Yeah. Yeah. We weren't we weren't locked on in arm like a pair of siamese twins just saying, Yeah. Oh, dear. So I think this is a perfect perfect to end the conversation, John. As always, a pleasure Thank you. To conclude, I guess, key thing is have have a plan. Let's do your research assess your skills gaps and network. Networking is the best way to do that intelligence gathering before you decide to make the leap. And if you can look before you leap. Definitely. Thank you, Dante. And, hopefully, anybody who is considering a career pivots life got something useful there or this. So I'll just

John Byrne [01:03:34]:

reinforce it to I I would still encourage anybody to do it, as I said earlier. I I think Career pivots are now now going to be going forward. It's necessary. I don't think you you had a stick in the same career, yeah, for your whole career anymore. But, yeah, it can be great fun. It is challenging, but it can be great fun. And when you make the right move, it's amazing how you feel so much better in yourself than than you did in the the career at New York. Maybe you're okay with what weren't exactly enthused about. I I encourage strongly encourage anybody considering it to do the research, and then do with the move. Don't don't be afraid. Just take the chance. Absolutely. Don't don't let fear stop you if it's what you really want to do, but just go in with eyes open. Ultimately, when you bet,

Dante Healy [01:04:20]:

you're betting on yourself and I found in my career betting on myself has always been a good bet. Because one way or another, you're gonna make it a success regardless of whatever you define that success to be. And personally, from both of us, we wish you listeners who are thinking of that career pivot We wish you every success. And again, gonna do a little plug here. If you do want to follow us, Go to the website business breaks dot club. Subscribe to our email list. We drop insights and unlike unlike Some of my content is on social media. This is private for the listeners. It is exclusive insights Thank you very much, John. As for watching Saturday. This podcast shares experiences and insights gain from business, IT And Digital Finance, hosted by 2 leaders who have made the leap themselves. The show is dedicated to helping listeners think differently about their rear aspirations.