Dante Healy [00:00:00]:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Business Breaks. I'm Dante Healy. And together with my friend and co host, John Byrne, we will follow-up our conversation into mastering communication as a project manager. Now, in our last episode, we talked about the inner game of communication, and how self awareness and managing stakeholders can help you build influence. Today, we're going to take it a step further with mastering influence through situational awareness, and we'll discuss how to build influence even when you don't have a formal authority, sharing practical strategies for handling tough conversations without overstepping your boundaries. And so if you've ever found yourself struggling to get your voice heard or wondering how to steer a meeting without being the most senior person in the room, this episode is for you. So let's jump back in and explore how to communicate with confidence, influence, and impact.

Dante Healy [00:01:00]:

So, John, let's start with this idea. How can project managers build confidence to handle very difficult conversations as well as even reading subtle cues in meetings, which require you to influence outcomes without necessarily having direct control or authority over decisions or resources. How do you find that works in real life?

John Byrne [00:01:27]:

In real life, I I it it's difficult. Let let's be honest. Everybody, especially when they're starting off, will find that very difficult. How difficult in project management? It depends on where you're starting from. Like, I think we've both been reasonably lucky in that we started off from a reasonably senior place Yep. Business. So we had a little bit, a fair bit of experience when we moved into project management. But if you think back to, you know, when we started out in business ourselves, we didn't have that confidence.

John Byrne [00:02:05]:

It was something that, you know, had to be built up a bit. And I I do tend to see two extremes. I I tend to to to see we we kinda mentioned them in the last episode. There's the overconfident and the underconfident. The overconfident person who kind of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and they have little knowledge, and they think they that that little knowledge is everything they need to know, and they won't actually so they don't really communicate because communicate is two way. They tell. They instruct. They they, you know

Dante Healy [00:02:38]:

So that Dunning Kruger effect.

John Byrne [00:02:40]:

Yeah. And that's that's that's probably worse the the worst thing that you can do. And then a very close second worst thing to do is to be afraid to speak up, to be afraid to take charge. Even if you don't fully understand everything, you you know, you need to be brave. You need to to have Or

Dante Healy [00:03:00]:

worse yet, you may actually understand it, but you don't think you have the right information or you have the right expertise to solve it properly, or your eyes ideas are worthless. And I've seen that extreme as well.

John Byrne [00:03:14]:

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, again, you wouldn't be there if if that was the case. They hired you. They've asked you to be the project manager, whether that's taking you in to be the project manager or whether that's moving you from wherever your day job is over to managing this project. They've done that because they reckon you do have the, ability to do it. So take take confidence from that. Be brave and be a little courageous.

John Byrne [00:03:39]:

I mean, they're they're they're especially early on, that is the only way you're going to do it. Don't don't assume you know everything. Mhmm. But be brave enough to

Dante Healy [00:03:49]:

To value what you do know.

John Byrne [00:03:51]:

Exactly. You know? Now now being courageous, being brave, that's not the same as being overconfident. That's the you know, not asserting yourself aggressively. That's not good. Mhmm. But do assert yourself strategically that that, you know, you you you know certain things, and that's why you're here. And and and go with that and be open then to learning new things and and adjusting as needed. But, you know, you you you do have to you're not the primary.

John Byrne [00:04:20]:

You're certainly not the most senior person in the room a lot of the time. You might not even be the primary influencer in the room, so you have to adapt your approach accordingly. Certain amount of theoretical knowledge might be okay for that, but you're going to pick that up as you go. Reading the room is important. People managing. To to use a football, soccer, as the Americans would call it, thing. You've got the the man manager type of thing that they they can read the room. They know what each player needs to ring the best out of them.

John Byrne [00:04:49]:

You kind of almost need a little bit of that in project management. Or, very few of those those, man managers, people managers will, have started off their career with that skill. They they have to just adapt to it, but you have to be open to learning. Yeah. And and that's a mind shift. Like, the the the a mindset shift that, you know, sometimes you go in and you think, like, I need to be heard. And, you know, you don't need to be heard. You need to be effective.

John Byrne [00:05:15]:

Just kind of have that mindset that that you're willing to learn new things, but you've got enough confidence in what you have already learned that you are useful and try to get that balance right. Don't divide difficult conversations. But by the same token, don't make conversations difficult just for the sake of it.

Dante Healy [00:05:30]:

Yeah. There's there's two elements. And sometimes sometimes you have to if news is bad and it's repeatedly bad. You can't you get to a point where you can't avoid you can't avoid stating what's happening by sugarcoating the situation. Sometimes people get worried about cushioning the blows. But yeah.

John Byrne [00:05:52]:

That's something I I, you know, kind of, you know, we have we both have our little trigger points, and and you've just raised one of mine. I know I'm just gonna go off script a little bit. Yeah. I don't think it's don't think it's one of the points that we had raised, but I honestly think transparency and honesty are the most important things. When you're communicating to anybody and, you know, we'll we'll go through a few techniques and a few things that you can do, but the underlying thing has to be you have to be open and honest. Bad news has to be communicated if it's if it's if it's, bad news. You you need to let people know. They need to know they can trust you, and and knowing they can trust you is not thinking that everything is going well all the time.

John Byrne [00:06:31]:

Knowing they can trust you means that when things are going badly, you'll tell them they're going badly. If things are going well, you'll tell them they're going well. So when you tell people they're going things are going well, they know they actually are going well and that I'm not worried and thinking, yeah. The last time I was you you told me that things were going well, the whole project went downhill straight afterwards. You know, it's it's, I think we've mentioned that in a previous, maybe a conversation just we were having, the the the traffic lighting of having, you know, green, amber, and red things on your, projects, presentations, and slides and that. And, you know, situations where it goes from green to red, that's bad communication. You and you lose credibility when that happens. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:07:12]:

But, you know, when things have gone to amber, you need to tell people things are amber. They're they're under risk. They're they're under threat here. There there's a risk.

Dante Healy [00:07:19]:

Yeah. If you jump from green straight to red, it means you've you you haven't had control or oversight of the project.

John Byrne [00:07:28]:

Yeah. It it either means that you you didn't

Dante Healy [00:07:30]:

spot one way or another.

John Byrne [00:07:32]:

Or you you are misleading the people that you are communicating with by letting them think it was when, you know, that going well. And you lose credibility really quickly there. And and as we mentioned in the last episode, you don't have a lot of authority. What you have is influence, and that influence requires credibility. If you lose your credibility, you lose your influence. And if you lose your influence, you are no good as a project manager anymore.

Dante Healy [00:07:54]:

Yeah. And you'll you'll pick it up when you hear the executive sponsor say stuff like, can we please be a bit more honest?

John Byrne [00:08:03]:

Yeah. If if if if if that's ever said to you, then you really need to to

Dante Healy [00:08:08]:

Polish up your CV and start looking for another job. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:08:11]:

That I that I'm trying to

Dante Healy [00:08:12]:

find something else.

John Byrne [00:08:13]:

People people don't expect you to have, good news all the time. What they expect you to have is honest news, the the truth. They They want to know the truth. Is the project doing well? If you're saying it's doing well, make sure it is doing well. If there are risks, you highlight the risks. You highlight them early. Even if they never come to fruition, that you highlight them. And it means then if those risks become an issue, well, everybody's prepared for them because you you flagged them.

John Byrne [00:08:36]:

Now by the same token, you know, you you you don't flag up every possible little thing that's not really a risk. You know? But the main risks that could lead the issues that could influence the project, you bring them up and you communicate them. You have to be honest with them and transparent with people that you're communicating.

Dante Healy [00:08:52]:

I saw a project lead once, and every time there was a minor thing, he'd flagged the project up red. And his view was he was getting senior management attention. But the problem was but there was this, German children's fairy tale about the boy who called

John Byrne [00:09:08]:

bright gold. Yeah. I was just

Dante Healy [00:09:10]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So maybe that was it. Yeah. He he had this habit of making the project go red over every little slippage, and he wanted to make sure that whatever resources were available that the executives were throwing it at my project. And it got very annoying because some of these issues weren't resourcing issues. They were actually technical issues.

Dante Healy [00:09:34]:

If he left his team to get on with it, it would be solved, but it was actually very inefficient.

John Byrne [00:09:40]:

And that's what I mean by, you know, being honest and transparent as and and so you don't exaggerate don't exaggerate things that aren't really that important, but don't under report things that aren't and, you know, I mean, that can be as simple as, yeah, everything is green, but I'm just keeping an eye on this. It's not a risk at the moment. There's no reason to think it will become one. But I'm keeping an eye on it because if if something were to go wrong here, it could lead to it. And then if if something goes wrong and things go to amber, but people were aware of it, and then if it becomes an issue, it goes to red. It's like, well, you know, you've been telling everybody where they are, which which builds up your credibility. You know? Credibility is not about giving good news all the time. Credibility is about giving the correct news

Dante Healy [00:10:21]:

Yeah.

John Byrne [00:10:21]:

At the correct time. No point in reporting something that's happened. You have to report it as it goes.

Dante Healy [00:10:26]:

And as a nuance, communicating it with the light right level of urgency.

John Byrne [00:10:32]:

If you get a

Dante Healy [00:10:32]:

minor slippage, it's not on the critical path and you have a critical path, and you have a plan for catching up, or it's just a team member who's figuring stuff out but is well within their technical capability. Don't escalate it unnecessarily. Report it. If it's a slippage, make it yellow, but we have a plan. Or if it's red because it's it's impacting the overall timelines, then by all means, report it as red, but also state why you think maybe that red is just a technical red rather than a an overall red, if that makes sense.

John Byrne [00:11:06]:

Yeah. I mean, oftentimes, when I've been doing reports, especially the way a lot of projects are modularized on us. The overall project may be green, but there might be a certain part in the project that's red or yellow or yellow or amber or whatever. And the reason for that being, yeah, that particular module, we've got an issue. But that module is not on the critical path. It's not going to the issue will be solved. We we'll figure it out some way around the or or the risk will be mitigated long before it impacts the overall project. So that will be grand in that regard.

John Byrne [00:11:38]:

And and, you know, the and the other way as well is if something is not a risk at the moment, if the person the technical aid is walking away and has said no no issues at the moment, everything is working fine, and I expect everything to go according to plan, you can just leave everything green and then just, you know, as a little note in one of the meetings, just say, they're we're walking on this now. Everything seems to be going fine. If there if that pops up, I will flag it, which is and we might need extra resources to help do to to get through it. But at the moment, everything has gone round, and and we've got no issues. Again, it's just flagging it. You're not making it out to be something big, but you're just kinda pointing out to people that if if it becomes, you know, if if if some some things go against us, we may just need to to escalate it in the future. But at the moment, it's Grant. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:12:31]:

You can't really ask for more than that. I don't think.

Dante Healy [00:12:33]:

Exactly. And the the thing that any manager or senior stakeholder wants, And more to the point, what they don't want is unnecessary surprises. So if you're gonna bring bad news, make sure that they're aware beforehand, or at least they're the first to know the bad news is coming. Worst thing they can do is hear it from a peer rather than their own direct reports.

John Byrne [00:12:56]:

Gotcha.

Dante Healy [00:12:56]:

And the other thing is be transparent when you're reporting bad news. Make sure you understand why it happened, how it happened, why it wasn't picked up sooner. And if you know what needs to be done, make sure you have an answer. Either you're gonna make it right and you're gonna figure it out, and this is how you're gonna do it, Or you're gonna you you're asking for help, and you're saying this is where we're struggling. Yeah. So they can help you. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:13:24]:

The only thing I'd say there is as well, when you're doing that, do not turn it into a blame game. Mhmm. Don't don't try to pass the book onto somebody else Yeah. Because that just makes you look weak that you are not taking responsibility. By the same token, don't blame yourself for everything. You know, sometimes things just go wrong. It's not anybody's fault. It's just it went wrong.

John Byrne [00:13:46]:

It's not walking out the way it was expected by you, the subject matter expert, the technical lead, anybody. So nobody can really take responsibility for why did it go wrong, why, you know, it had to go wrong because, there was no other way of knowing it would go wrong until it went wrong. You know, that can't happen in projects that something there was no way of predicting it. You just have to go through the project, get to it, realize this is not gonna work. We have to, you know, do something to fix it and come up with a solution of some sort, whether that solution is to walk around it, to walk over it, walk under it, walk through it, or completely change it. Whatever the solution is, you you figured that out and you do it. But don't play a blame game. Don't try to pass the book on to someone else.

John Byrne [00:14:28]:

It makes you look weak. By the same token, if there is a weak link in the, if if the problem is somebody is not capable of doing the job they were hired to do, well, then you do need to escalate that, you know, but that's rare. From my experience, that's rare. Usually, people do know what they're doing and and they're on the project team for a reason. It's just, you know, accept things can often be sought with regards to project management that things can go wrong. It's not good. It's not bad. It's just this.

Dante Healy [00:14:55]:

Mhmm. Exactly. And and this is really about establishing that trust in between your stakeholders and and your credibility. And from that baseline, you can influence. And then I generally find that trying to for trying to apply techniques like, I don't know, rapport building, that's, that can be an extension of building the trust first. You don't, Ultimately, the only way you build trust is through continued repeated exposure, robust trust. Until then, you have to just keep proving yourself until people are just comfortable with you, and then they trust you without questioning. And allow for the questioning because questioning will come continuously.

Dante Healy [00:15:40]:

And don't take it personally. It's just people may have different risk tolerances. They just want to get reassurance that things are going well. So they'll keep asking you, how's it going? How's it going? You're going well?

John Byrne [00:15:54]:

That's it. And and, you know, the the different risk tolerances. And also people have different, you know, to to you, this is just a project to put in a system. But to somebody else, the system is basically going to decide whether they have a job in a year's time or not. Because if if the system fails, it'll be seen as a failure on their part, and they'll be gone. And so Mhmm. You know, bear bear that mind. Have empathy for the people that you're dealing with.

John Byrne [00:16:20]:

Don't assume yeah. Some people are just nasty in all walks of life, and that will include project management. But don't assume that just because somebody is questioning you all the time that they have a friend for you, they they they likely don't. So I mean Yeah. Experiences generally that nobody really has a ring for you. They just have different levels of the the information. When they get nervous, especially if it if it's a big project to them, it can come across that they're almost bullying, trying to pick on you, but they're not really. So you just need to have a bit of a tick skin as a project manager to not be overly passive with them, not to be overly aggressive with them, but but be assertive.

John Byrne [00:16:58]:

Yeah. There is a difference. How how how do you how how do you explain that difference on a on a on a podcast? I'm not a % certain. You know it when you see it, but trying to explain it in words is difficult. I I'll leave that to you, Dante. Do you have a way of distinguishing between aggressive, passive, and assertive, which is, you know, the Goldilocks just just just right?

Dante Healy [00:17:24]:

I think it it you know, this is dipping into the dark side of psychology. Right? Where you've got people who are and they can be passive aggressive. Right?

John Byrne [00:17:36]:

Well, that's yeah.

Dante Healy [00:17:38]:

So, you know, that's the thing where you actually you you give a backhanded compliment that's really an insult. And

John Byrne [00:17:46]:

definitely don't want to start that as a project manager because if you start, get a reputation. The project manager, all credibility is gone. Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:17:53]:

Yeah. Exactly. You know, you really report bad news so well because you do it so often, you know, that sort of thing. It's like so I guess in terms of answering your question seriously, assertiveness means in my mind that you're doing it respecting the other person as well as respecting yourself. Aggressive means you only respect yourself and you don't give you don't care anything about the other person. And I guess, the other one which is really, non assertive or submissive means you respect the other person, but you don't respect yourself.

John Byrne [00:18:38]:

And that that's that's a that's an excellent, way of describing it. I think, you know, that

Dante Healy [00:18:42]:

No. Thank you. It's a it's a nuanced, it's a nuanced, I guess, view of it. And yeah. I think I think you have to really appreciate that over time, you'll be able to read people. And you'll find even you'll identify people who even lie within your project team as you say the the sort of the nasty characters who come up. I remember when I was a program manager, and this is managing multiple project managers. I had a new project manager on my team.

Dante Healy [00:19:13]:

He was speaking to a colleague of mine, and then I had a follow-up with the colleague's boss because we had a conflict in terms of timing. They didn't want their launch to coincide with ours because it would lock up it would require the same resources and burn them out. However, when we spoke to that person's manager, she said, well, we're not really going live at the same time as you. Ours is a technical go live, and we've already tested it. But we're not going live with the business until three months later. And and this colleague of mine was with her in the meeting with me and with my project manager. And, yeah, the colleague was actually nodding and agreeing with his boss. And then after the meeting, he goes, that guy lied.

Dante Healy [00:20:00]:

He blatantly lied. And I said, you'll get used to him. You know? So it's but and he came from banking, which is very political. Not a specific bank, shall we say, that is known for having very, shall we say ethical being called out in the news for ethical issues at the time. So and I thought he'd he'd be one of these people who'd probably not have too many scruples, but he was really shocked by the lack of professionalism. But, yeah, it's it's one of those things you you he would he he he recognized the behavior. He didn't expect it. And sometimes, it's the punches you don't see coming that are the ones that hurt the most, they say.

John Byrne [00:20:46]:

Gotcha. And, you know, you there's as as kinda said earlier, you almost you you need to have a a bit of a tick skin to be a project manager because,

Dante Healy [00:20:56]:

you know, people take it personally.

John Byrne [00:20:57]:

And take it directly. And then you've also got the other side of that, which, you know, comes from a different dang a different mentality, but can be just as damaging as you've got people who are lying not because they're not because they're trying to undermine your you've got got people pleasers. They are afraid to give you bad news. So we've we've mentioned before that you can't be afraid to give bad news. You have to you have to be honest and but as a project manager, you're relying on team leads and not to give you the bad news. And sometimes they're the ones who are afraid to give bad news and they're people pleasing. They're giving you good news all the time because they're afraid to tell you what the bad news is. Now how do you get around that? You just that's very difficult to get around actually.

John Byrne [00:21:42]:

And and there's not a lot you can do if they're not willing to try and become more transparent. But the only thing you can do is to try and make it as safe an environment with them as you can when you are communicating with them in one on ones or in team meetings. So that when they do give you bad news, do not react in a in a way that will frighten them off from giving you bad news ever again. Accept the bad news. Don't deportion blame. And then almost immediately, as soon as you get an understanding, get get the understanding of what's causing the bad news. But as soon as you have the understanding, kind of try and change the subject almost to, instead of focusing on the bad news. Okay.

John Byrne [00:22:23]:

Now that we know where we stand, what's the solution? How do you have any ideas how we can fix it? Let them come up with some ideas as well that just makes them feel part of the solution. That that will help make them feel a little bit more, secure about giving you bad news again in the future when they need to. You know, you you won't guarantee that they'll they'll be more secure in the future, that they'll they'll they'll they might continue people pleasing. But, what what you can guarantee is if you start getting annoyed with them when they give you bad news, they'll stop giving you bad news. And and then that means you don't know what's happening in your project.

Dante Healy [00:22:59]:

Absolutely. Thanks, John. And I guess in terms of tactics and strategies, have you encounter what do you prefer to use? Do you prefer to take a strategic approach to communication? And how much of it is variation depending on the context? So do you have I'm I mean, last week, you you made a a very good point about when do you influence, when do you instruct, and when do you inform people. And that was based on stakeholder mapping. But sometimes, it may be the audience has is the same, but the type of communication has changed or maybe the approach. How do you see the majority of project management communication? I have an answer myself. I'll I'll I'd like to get your view. And what what is it? What's the approach you take in terms of how do you convey information in a way that is, shall we say, the the more effective project managers approach it?

John Byrne [00:24:05]:

Okay. You have the groups. You've got the the stakeholder analysis, and you've got the groups. And and you you know how to how much you're gonna have to deal with them. Within that, there are two groups that I consider the more important. So there's the people who who who, you know, effectively, they will they have they they have control over your project effectively. They're really important people who are really you have to keep daily engagement with. And I've gone completely blank dust the the whole thing.

John Byrne [00:24:35]:

But the other there's another group who, the project is important to them, but they don't have an awful lot of influence. I like to keep them involved as well because while they may not be able to influence the project, they're the ones who are going to ultimately, they're the ones who are gonna make the project a success or a failure because when you go live, they're the ones who are gonna be using it all the time, usually. Within those two groups, I will then pretty much break down on a person by person basis, more or less, especially in the key the key stakeholder group that who have the info. Because that's usually a small enough group that you can do that. Within the other group, it's it's often too big to be able to do that. But there'll be a few champions, you know, people who who will, if you can get them on-site, they'll get all the rest on-site for you. You know, they're they're the influencers of that group. They they, they they do it.

John Byrne [00:25:29]:

So I like to deal to deal with them on a on a one to one basis almost. I will use certain I I I don't use any of the specific, psychological types of person things. But in general, you you do know that there are, you know, people prefer different levels of information, different styles. I'll try and work that out pretty quickly in the first one to ones with them, you know, just to have meetings to find out what type of information that they need, what do they want. And then I'll adjust communications to them specifically to sue them specifically. And they'll still get the general gist that's going to the whole group, but then I'll follow-up with them to make sure because they are key people. I mean, even the the people who, can't influence the project while it's happening. If if they're bought in, if if you've got a few key people there in that group who are bought in, they'll make sure it's a success when it goes live.

John Byrne [00:26:21]:

That it continues to be a success. So in a year later when, you know, you you come back looking for a reference or something like that, everybody's still delighted with it because this worked. You've done nothing to make it work after it went live, but because you did the communications and you you you got the right people, and and that's a you have to figure that out. Who who are the ones who who do the other users turn to to look to to see, are we going to go with this or are we against them? You know, there's always somebody who's kind of a leader. That's that's so I I tend to do it that way to to maximize the chances of success, not only of delivering the project on time, but of the project being then successful after the fact when it's gone live.

Dante Healy [00:27:02]:

That's pretty good. I mean, without without using any fancy buzzwords, you're talking about championing Yeah. Change at a deep cultural level through grassroots initiatives. Basically, getting the users on board and promoting the change that needs to happen, whether it's taking a new system, adapting to a new process. I mean, for me personally, strategic communication for project managers. I find it's less about storytelling and more about framing narratives. So let me make this distinction. So storytelling is more about conveying information in a structured and engaging way.

Dante Healy [00:27:43]:

And usually, it's telling a story, so we've got a clear beginning, middle, end, and creating that narrative arc using emotions, connecting, resonating, making messages memorable. And usually, I'd save that for the end of a project where you're sharing a success story or doing the lessons learned and illustrating those lessons, or or even explaining what went wrong in a way that kind of doesn't lay blame on anyone, but lays lays the fault on the process and maybe the approach, making things relatable, almost excusing why things went wrong. It could have happened to anyone, that sort of thing. Whereas it for really strategic successful project communication, you really need to talk about framing your narrative and positioning the information, which is usually project status, decisions, outcomes in a way that aligns with audience expectations as well as audience goals. So it's about selecting the information to highlight, presenting which are the relevant challenges, and also setting a context for the results that you've achieved. And it's important when you you're delivering project updates, You're trying to manage your expectations of your stakeholders as well as when you're presenting at all levels up to stakeholders. So I think that's for me is really important. It's more about framing narratives than trying to sell stories.

Dante Healy [00:29:21]:

What do you think?

John Byrne [00:29:23]:

Yeah. Definitely. Stories have their their places in project management. But from the communication side, I think, yeah, that framing the narrative is is is is stories aren't as effective for the communicating, piece.

Dante Healy [00:29:37]:

Not not for For project managers.

John Byrne [00:29:39]:

Project managers. Not for not for communicating updates and and getting, you know, things. The stories are kind of more for

Dante Healy [00:29:46]:

Stories are like picture books and project framing narratives is like having a telescope

John Byrne [00:29:52]:

Mhmm.

Dante Healy [00:29:53]:

Where you can zoom in, zoom out. Yeah. You get the complete picture or you can zone in on a specific relevant detail.

John Byrne [00:30:00]:

Yeah. And for for for the communication side of project management, that's more important. When I'm saying for the communication side, I mean, from the specifics of, like Yeah. Being a project, you're in the middle of the project, so so you're doing it. You have stories. You have to use your story and things like that for framing, testing, and for how you're actually what what's the point of the project? What's the ultimate goal supposed to be? Well, to be able to put the system in, the user story will this is the user story, and this is how the system will help that happen. Yeah. So it it does play a role.

John Byrne [00:30:31]:

Storytelling kind of thing does play a role in it.

Dante Healy [00:30:33]:

But I think that's influence though. Storytelling is influence. And sometimes a lot of the communication isn't about necessarily always influencing. Although I have one story where we were doing some competitive quotes for a solution, and I I put all the criteria across all of the vendors proposals. And I presented it to the head of FP and A. And I thought based on my recommendation, based on my objective analysis, that he would go with, say, vendor a. He actually went with vendor b because of the deep relationship he had with them. Though it it can be funny.

Dante Healy [00:31:19]:

I think this is where influence kind of fails on just raw facts. What do you find?

John Byrne [00:31:24]:

I I do find that. Yeah. But I have to admit now, I I've I've had, a similar situation, except I was expecting them to go with, Vendorbee because of their relationship that they had. And I recommended vendor b because of the relationship that they had. It was kind of one of those things where the the vendor with the systems, actually, a vendor, which just happened to come with one of the systems. And they had an established relationship with with with one of the systems, with one of the vendors. And most of the other stuff with the systems, the the options that we had, it was kind of six on one, half a dozen on the other. There were a few there were few advantages in one system over the other, but they were balanced off by disadvantages.

John Byrne [00:32:07]:

You know? So it was kind of, oh, how would you pick one of these systems? And the the recommendation I made was go with with vendor b because, well, a, for start, you're already using them. Mhmm. You've you've got an established, relationship. But, actually, the the the system the vendor that, was using the system, they didn't just have an established relationship. When I was going in doing the initial research to put the business case together for the, for upgrading the whole EPM, not one person not only did nobody have anything bad to say about the vendor, every single person I spoke to in in interviews and stuff like that praised them. You know? So it wasn't just the case of that they they didn't want to say I'm bad. So it's it's, you know, if you can't say I'm good, say nothing. It was no.

John Byrne [00:32:56]:

They were actively praising this vendor that they they loved working with that vendor. So when I came to make a new recommendation, I kinda just said, look. The systems are close enough that it's not really one having a huge advantage over the other. But this system here, the the vendors who the the people are used to using, and they all love this vendor. They all trust this vendor. They all have great the vendor has great credibility with them. So stick with it because there's one lot of change that you you don't want to have to enforce on people because they don't want it. They they want to stick with the one they trust.

Dante Healy [00:33:27]:

And at at points like that when you misread the situation, best thing to do is to adapt and just accept the decision maker's called the decision, and that's fine as long as you understand it.

John Byrne [00:33:40]:

That's it. And and, ultimately, you know, if you if you give options and they pick an option, even if it's not the option you recommend it, still one of your options. So they're still done what you've done. It's just, you know, they've

Dante Healy [00:33:52]:

You know what? They were, they he was grateful that I gave him an an analysis that was impartial, and he could actually see everything that I thought through. And he was he thanked me profusely for it.

John Byrne [00:34:06]:

That's it. And and, you know, ultimately, it comes down to it. They they they you are looking at it from a pure, you know, outsider's view. You had no skin in the game. Yeah. Well, the advantages that you see him for vendor a over vendor b, he had skin in the game when he came to it, and those advantages weren't enough to overcome that skin in the game. Yeah. What he would not have known he he wouldn't have been able to make a clear decision on that.

John Byrne [00:34:35]:

He was able to say, look, those advantages aren't enough to change.

Dante Healy [00:34:39]:

They're not relevant. Oh, yeah. Exactly. There's there's a different waiting. The facts you presented were fine. I just wait the relationship higher.

John Byrne [00:34:48]:

Yeah. Exactly. Where you couldn't have known that. But by the same token, he couldn't have known until you gave him that presentation. He didn't know for sure. Maybe the vendor would have been so much better that he he would have having to go with him. But because you did all that, he was then able to make clear conscious and and choice that, no. You know what? Vendor a is slightly better, but the relationship outweighs all that.

John Byrne [00:35:13]:

So I'll stick with vendor b, and I can justify it now. Whereas before you gave him that, he couldn't justify it.

Dante Healy [00:35:18]:

Yeah. And it was I mean, all things being equal, it was it all came down my recommendation came down to price. And for him, he he saw the quality of both vendors based on two separate pilots, and he gave it to vendor b because he knew that they had fewer mistakes in or or fewer situations where rework had to be done. So it's the quality of their code.

John Byrne [00:35:43]:

The the the beauty of it is we we we with the example I gave, we were looking at systems and, you know, the vendor came with the system, and it was system a, system b, and we'd vendor b for system b. Mhmm. System a, we didn't actually have a vendor for. We we haven't gone that far yet. We were just looking at the systems. Plus the system became through a merger, so they were the other company was using system a. So, we we probably were were kind of thinking, well, we use their supplier, but we've no, you know, thing with them. So we were just purely looking at systems.

John Byrne [00:36:19]:

And we went for system b based on the vendor. We knew the vendor and the and then as it turned out, I don't think they were doing it at that time. But vendor b now do both system a and system b, so we could have picked whichever system completely independently, and vendor b would have been doing it no matter what. Well, having said that, we still would have went with the the system b because a larger chunk of the people were using system b for other things. So it just meant, yeah, they weren't using it for what we were putting in, but they it just meant things like they they knew how to log in. They knew where to the menus were, things like that. But you didn't have to get complete training on everything that they already knew a lot of it. We just have to train them on the new modules that we were putting in for them to use.

Dante Healy [00:36:59]:

There's a lower risk option.

John Byrne [00:37:01]:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. We we have to communicate that, you know, to bring it back to communications. That was, communicating that with with everybody. I'm being completely open and honest with them. And and I was I did put down that when I gave the business case over to the the, to the sponsor. My recommendation was and I made that clear that the big thing that that system b had at that stage was vendor b was already there, and everybody in the place who walked to vendor b were recommending vendor b.

John Byrne [00:37:31]:

They were they were it wasn't just they had nothing bad to say. They all had something great to say. Mhmm. That makes a big difference that, you know, especially when all of our things are kind of equal, but sometimes even as as your your example, the the relationship can be, more important sometimes than some of the other things. But people need to know they can trust you why they're doing it. So you you made your recommendation, and you'd you'd you'd communicated just based on the price because you had no relationship with anybody, so you were looking purely at the other things. And then he knew what he was overruling. He was overruling price versus relationship because he knew what the relationship was.

John Byrne [00:38:09]:

Whereas if if you haven't have communicated that well, he might not have known why you were recommending vendor a, and and that might have made his decision a little bit more difficult.

Dante Healy [00:38:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been an argument then, but at least he could at least see where I was coming from from my perspective, and I was being transparent. And that's the main thing which we keep touching upon. Be transparent. Be clear on what you what what your what the basis of your recommendations are. And if if they're the right ones, then trust that the right decisions will be made even if they're not the ones you're recommending because you don't have all the information.

John Byrne [00:38:48]:

Yeah. That's it. And then don't take it personally. Don't, don't feel undermined just because because like I said, even if they didn't pick the one you recommended, they still picked one of your options. It's not like they went over your head and yeah. And I don't mean you personally, Dante. I mean, like, anybody Yeah. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:39:03]:

Exactly. Put together a few options, and they made a recommendation, and one of the other options was picked instead. It's it's not personal. It's not that they didn't trust you. They obviously did trust you because they've used one of your options, one of your recommendations, you know, just not the recommendation.

Dante Healy [00:39:16]:

Yeah. No. They were happy afterwards. That's and that's that's that's the measure of success. Were you right? No. Were they happy? Yes. And so for me, that was a successful interaction.

John Byrne [00:39:30]:

And and then again, you know, I'd even I'd even dispute with your your thing there. When you asked, were you right? And then you said no. I'd say, well, actually, were you right? Yes. You are right with the options you gave. Yeah. And you made a recommendation based on what your weighting was. They had slightly different weighting, but that's that's not right or wrong. That's just the difference of opinion.

John Byrne [00:39:50]:

Yeah. But they went with one of your options. So you are right to give them those options and with, you know, anyone doing project management out there, whether it's a solution, a few different solutions, whether you're doing it from the business case, giving them options of what systems we're in, or you've run into a problem and you have a few different solutions. Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:40:09]:

Frame the options and then put a recommendation to show you have an opinion, but don't worry if they don't go with your recommendation.

John Byrne [00:40:17]:

Yeah. They'll go with one of your options. That's and that's a success. You've given them the options. They've known and they can trust you. And, you know, they they when you give them the recommendation, if you're transparent with it, they'll know why you gave them the recommendation, which you'll also be in there and they can explain to you. If they don't go with that recommendation, they can say, well, you gave us it, and it was because of such and such a thing, but we actually wait. It's these other things more important.

John Byrne [00:40:39]:

And there you go. You've learned something that when you're dealing with this particular

Dante Healy [00:40:42]:

Yeah. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:40:43]:

Sponsor in future, this is how they like to waiting. So if you're doing it again for something else

Dante Healy [00:40:47]:

Focus your analysis on their priorities and you align. Yeah.

John Byrne [00:40:51]:

Exactly.

Dante Healy [00:40:51]:

Calibrate. So brilliant. I think that's a great place to leave it because I think we've covered all the key points based on our experience on how how situations can be influenced. And influence isn't necessarily getting your way all the time or being right in the sense that, you know, it has to be your recommendation. It's not about you. It's about your stakeholders and giving them enough information to make informed decisions based on the analysis you provide. Yeah. So I think also, just to recap, so we covered courageous conversations, and it's not just about speaking up, but doing so with an awareness of the organizational dynamics.

Dante Healy [00:41:38]:

As we said, strategic framing over storytelling, not every communication is about storytelling, engaging, and influencing in that way. You're not having to force your views on other people and sell them a story. You're actually presenting options, making a recommendation, and letting people come to their own guide them to their own conclusion by facilitating that discussion in an open and transparent way. It can go anyway. And so influencing without authority is about leading from the middle by building alliances, maintaining your credibility, and using strategic questioning to guide the conversation and understand where the stakeholders are coming from. And you also balance your persistence with adaptability. So knowing when to push for a certain outcome and when to be flexible to opening the doors to future opportunities to influence. The goal is to really aim for aligning your interactions with the desired outcomes whilst keeping conversations open for revisiting key decisions.

Dante Healy [00:42:47]:

John, anything else you'd add to that?

John Byrne [00:42:50]:

The the the ultimate goal of a project manager, which it comes through communication, is to be shown to be credible and trustworthy. That that comes across with your communications, to be transparent, be open, be honest, be willing to take in feedback, be willing to make decisions when you have to make decisions, and communicate why you've made those decisions to people so that they don't feel under under, you know, that that you went and how do I say it? That they don't feel all the ways that I was saying we shouldn't feel when people don't take one of our recommendations, the other the the old option. We do when we don't take somebody's recommendation for one of the team leads or that that that's come in, Make sure we explain why we we did what we did so that they know why even if they don't agree with us, they at least understand why. You know, nobody ever feels that they can't trust what you've said is is at least honest even if they don't agree with with it's the best solution.

Dante Healy [00:43:48]:

And, ultimately, every positive business relationship comes from a place of trust.

John Byrne [00:43:53]:

You cannot project manage if you're not trusted. You won't get jobs for a start, and your project will fail because everybody will fail

Dante Healy [00:44:00]:

This person has an agenda.

John Byrne [00:44:02]:

Yeah. And everybody will go out and do their own thing because they'll just ignore you because they don't trust you.

Dante Healy [00:44:08]:

Yeah. They'll try you know, people are funny. They'll find a way to work around you even if they're forced to use you.

John Byrne [00:44:14]:

Yeah.

Dante Healy [00:44:14]:

Okay. Well, thank you, John. That was a very deep conversation. So yeah.

John Byrne [00:44:21]:

Hopefully, the listeners have gotten something out of it that they'll that they'll pick up. They can follow-up on or or whatever. Yeah. Hopefully, they they'll let us know what they think.

Dante Healy [00:44:29]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, we'll we'll put something out there, a form, a feedback form or something. I'm also working on a little bonus that if you click on the URL to our website, that you should should find very useful, hopefully. So, I'll keep it I'll keep it to myself, and, we'll we'll catch up in the next episode. John, thank you very much. Pleasure as always.

John Byrne [00:44:54]:

Pleasure Dante. The ultimate teaser for the next episode there.

Dante Healy [00:44:58]:

Indeed. Indeed. I'll tell you after I hit the stop recording.